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[Music]

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welcome back to calling all beings on a

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sunday afternoon where we have been

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after this brother for a very

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long time

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yes i'm your host dj along with the

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co-creator co-conspirator co-brother of

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this joint

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money nathan from north carolina what's

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up everybody as you can see i'm in my

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remote studio this is a off destination

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location we don't absolutely

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undisclosed exactly

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[Laughter]

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next up uh looking looking great uh this

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afternoon and looking very ready to get

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into some bigfoot and uap talk our guest

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says so you know we're gonna we're gonna

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follow up with what he wants to do

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because he is the guest of honor hello

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kevin how are you sir

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i'm good how are you guys i'm great

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great to be here at the beginning mm-hmm

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yeah

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that's good

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uap experiencers ain't playing no game

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good morning steph what's up i'm also on

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a classified location on some planet you

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you guys can you you can choose

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go watch

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you'll see where steph is no hints yes

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and now let's bring it

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let's bring it up for our very special

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guest

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uh this brother right here we've been

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after for a long time he's somebody we

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earmarked i think me i think he was on

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your initial list nathan that we made is

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somebody we wanted to have on and we

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just had to get we just had to get good

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enough and lucky enough to be able to

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connect with people to get this brother

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on uh he is a researcher he's digging

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into anthropology ufology bigfootology

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and even musicology i suspect um and he

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also started this thing with a couple

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other brothers named mj binayas and um

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lieutenant tim mcmillan called the

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debrief and guess what the credit card

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doesn't come out his pocket to make it

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happen so party people put them hands

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together

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it's good to see you guys really good to

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see you in fact it's also good to be

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here and good to be seen am i coming

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it reminds me of symposium i'm like damn

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man he not only does he sound good he

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looks good the only thing i could pick

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out is where the side burns i'm like the

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sideburns are gone man

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he speaks

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yeah i used to sport those that's the

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problem though when you're time

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traveling you know you don't necessarily

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keep up with all the trends and the

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young lady said to me oh sideburns yeah

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that's really 2010 and i said is it no

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wait oh

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off with them off they go

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form false function okay fine

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um so anyway it is it's an honor to have

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you micah really we we've been chasing

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you since the very very beginning and um

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it's it's surreal you know to have you

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on i think we have uh you know four

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fanboys and if deb was here it'd be five

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uh uh gender neutral fanboys

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huh gender neutral gender oh roger that

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right irrespective of gender

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uh

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so mike i i wanted to be a bigfoot heavy

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but like you said when we were backstage

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absolutely if we want to entertain

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aspects of the phenomenon we'd be remiss

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if we didn't do that with so much going

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on and people that are in the community

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speaking about uh that they're big

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things about to happen i don't know what

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those things are but dr gary nolan

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alluded it to us uh alluded to it with

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us the other night on air as well as

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other friends in the community who are

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far more connected than we are

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uh

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regarding bigfoot

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uh a topic that i'm fascinated with that

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these guys get to watch me

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on video in northwest florida traipsing

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around the woods with my dog

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calling out to bigfoot

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to come and say hello which you may or

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technology but i want to meet up with

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them

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um please if you would like put into

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context like how pervasive of this

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species is not only in the united states

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but other countries who have a species

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that you would associate with the one

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that we know

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okay well that's a good question um if i

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may i'll give a bit of background first

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please um you know we live in a very

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unusual world uh i think the most

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unusual thing about planet earth is

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maybe uh humans and humans attitudes

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toward things um it's often cited and uh

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it's really worthy of mention right now

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the work of the great philosopher of

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science thomas coombe

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who

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established the and this is important i

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mean seminal work in truth

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that

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scientific

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breakthroughs occur in terms of

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paradigms where essentially there's a

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great discovery

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there are you know sometimes entire

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disciplines of science that are built

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around the discovery

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and then

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people work within that field or

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discipline and they and they expand

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until they get to the edges so to speak

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and as you begin to push on the edges

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and you begin to get the idea that there

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may be something beyond that paradigm

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um people

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usually behave in one of two ways the

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more prevalent attitude is we've reached

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the edge the boundary we know just about

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everything that there is to know great

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example in modern physics for example is

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essentially uh those things in keeping

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with uh general relativity is outlined

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by the great albert einstein and before

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einstein

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and his you know innovative thinking

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about gravity and the nature of

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space-time in the cosmos and what ties

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it all together uh which again

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mathematically presented a number of

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predictions which have continued to be

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confirmed like gravity waves in recent

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years

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we before that of course had a newtonian

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world view where sir isaac newton had

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done probably the best in terms of

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nailing down how we think the mechanics

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of the universe work and so every time

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one paradigm gets to a point where

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somebody new comes along and it really

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expands the way we think

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people continue to kind of operate but

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within that paradigm and when einstein

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initially uh presented his revolutionary

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theories about general relativity there

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was at one point a uh petition that was

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signed by some 100 mathematicians and

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physicists who were all standing up and

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speaking out in uh in opposition to this

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radical idea

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and einstein famously said and i'm

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paraphrasing that listen a hundred

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scientists and mathematicians signing a

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petition doesn't refute the idea if you

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disagree with me

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refute

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you know my hypothesis show me the error

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in my calculations in the mathematics

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right and no one was ever able to and

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that's the whole point just because you

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disagree with an idea doesn't mean that

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if there are facts that support it that

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it's wrong when those facts remain true

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over opinions ideas belief systems and

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paradigms that's how science advances

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with regard to

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two subjects we're going to talk a lot

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about uh the anthropological phenomenon

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that i call uh the search for relict

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hominoids but these are popularly known

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as sasquatch yeti yaren alma and other

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names throughout the world

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um really and this going back to the

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earlier statement i mean we live in a

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very strange world and the strangest

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thing about it to me is that even when

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humans are aware of phenomena and able

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to observe them we're very slow

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to warm up to the idea that hey there's

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a there there we should study this how

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does science you know reconcile with

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this

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and really it's very important to just

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note here that with all the things we're

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seeing going on with uap in recent years

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i mean there is not

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like this sudden kind of phenomena that

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there's some sort of a siri speaking in

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the background by the way so you gotta

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love that when you say something and

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then the computers start talking back to

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you this is why i don't trust those

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machines just yet

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but that said

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um when we uh when we look at uap it's

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not like this is something that just you

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know came into existence out of nowhere

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out of you know the ether

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a lot of people a lot of our

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intelligence officials right now kind of

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do treat it like that they they say you

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know at least as recently as 2004

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anomalous aerospace vehicles or some

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other kind of phenomena have been

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observed by members of our military and

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so we're going to look at this

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phenomenon we're going to look at the

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best data we have and what we've

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collected with the most advanced sensory

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equipment i look at things very

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differently from that

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my fundamental approach is hey listen

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you know

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to fully understand anything you have to

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understand its history right this is one

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of the arguments that skeptics often and

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you know it would be a fair argument if

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i didn't think that it was inaccurate

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but a fair argument would be that hey a

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phenomena doesn't just spring into

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existence out of nowhere and this is

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what they say about sasquatch you know

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in the 1950s people start claiming

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they're seeing footprints out there in

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bluff creek california there were some

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indigenous american legends before that

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but we're not sure they're really the

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same thing a phenomenon doesn't just

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erupt into your midst well people can

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try and make claims like that people

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have tried to say the same thing about

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uap you know these things just spring

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into existence in 1947 maybe there were

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some sightings of some things foo

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fighters ghost rockets you know in the

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1940s during the war i would say no no

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if you actually do your due diligence if

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you go back and you look at the history

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there's a much deeper history of

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recorded phenomena that is a good match

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but perhaps filtered through a different

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cultural lens and the lens of of you

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know contemporaneity you know going back

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to the 1930s or the 20s or the teens you

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know and people in every different era

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describe things that they experience

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differently

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we of course in our modern post space

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age right where we've sent people to the

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moon we've sent probes beyond our solar

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system we have no problem thinking in

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terms of spacecraft in the 1890s you

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know when people were seeing strange

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lights that were occurring over parts of

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california they called them airships

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right but at that time we didn't have

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any heavier-than-air craft that were

280
00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:36,720
flying kitty hawk hadn't happened yet

281
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:38,000
the wright brothers hadn't put a plane

282
00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:39,519
in the sky

283
00:10:42,150 --> 00:10:41,360
the point i want to try and make here is

284
00:10:43,910 --> 00:10:42,160
that

285
00:10:46,389 --> 00:10:43,920
there probably is a history but one of

286
00:10:48,550 --> 00:10:46,399
the issues that we face is understanding

287
00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:48,560
outside of our modern frame of reference

288
00:10:52,870 --> 00:10:50,640
what to look for when we go back in time

289
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:52,880
and so i've tried to impress upon people

290
00:10:55,750 --> 00:10:54,320
i've spoken with in recent years who

291
00:10:56,790 --> 00:10:55,760
have looked at the uap issue very

292
00:10:58,069 --> 00:10:56,800
seriously and they're like what do you

293
00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:58,079
think about nimitz and i'm like i think

294
00:11:01,750 --> 00:11:00,399
it's great it's a fascinating case what

295
00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:01,760
do you think about the cases that have

296
00:11:06,550 --> 00:11:03,839
for more than a century been piling up

297
00:11:09,030 --> 00:11:06,560
and frankly maybe centuries before that

298
00:11:10,470 --> 00:11:09,040
how do we how do we look for the best

299
00:11:12,310 --> 00:11:10,480
data that is representative of that

300
00:11:13,829 --> 00:11:12,320
possibility that uap has been something

301
00:11:15,430 --> 00:11:13,839
that is a time-honored tradition of

302
00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:15,440
humans observing things in the sky that

303
00:11:20,069 --> 00:11:17,680
they can't identify without

304
00:11:21,670 --> 00:11:20,079
describing some sort of you know idea as

305
00:11:23,670 --> 00:11:21,680
to what they are where they're from who

306
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:23,680
or what may be behind them but again i

307
00:11:26,150 --> 00:11:25,040
jump back over to sasquatch and then i

308
00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:26,160
promise i'll stop running my mouth

309
00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:28,480
unless you guys ask a question

310
00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:29,920
but it's important i think to establish

311
00:11:33,590 --> 00:11:31,839
these these you know these kind of modes

312
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:33,600
of thinking in terms of framing each of

313
00:11:38,150 --> 00:11:35,600
these narratives historically

314
00:11:39,829 --> 00:11:38,160
suddenly after 2017

315
00:11:43,110 --> 00:11:39,839
what we really began to see happen with

316
00:11:44,870 --> 00:11:43,120
the uap topic was that not only were

317
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:44,880
military officials

318
00:11:48,230 --> 00:11:46,240
revealed to have been collecting

319
00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:48,240
information about this and studying it

320
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:49,680
and when this came to the attention of

321
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:51,120
the public through the fourth estate

322
00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:52,639
notably that paper of record the old

323
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:54,800
gray lady the new york times this

324
00:11:59,430 --> 00:11:57,519
article by you know kane blumenthal and

325
00:12:02,150 --> 00:11:59,440
cooper that was published uh that

326
00:12:04,470 --> 00:12:02,160
brought attention to the uh atip program

327
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:04,480
as it's known advanced aerospace threat

328
00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:06,160
identification program and again that

329
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:09,200
being a unclassified nickname from a

330
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:11,600
previous program asap but then was later

331
00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:14,320
borrowed for an informal pentagon a fish

332
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:15,760
initiative we won't get into the weeds

333
00:12:19,030 --> 00:12:17,440
on it the point is the government was

334
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:19,040
looking at uap

335
00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:20,959
the press thought there was a story here

336
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:22,880
the american public saw it and said wow

337
00:12:26,470 --> 00:12:24,560
this is just groundbreaking it was a big

338
00:12:28,230 --> 00:12:26,480
surprise to a lot of people old guard

339
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,240
ufo people who are aware already of the

340
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:30,320
civilian and government data it's been

341
00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:32,399
collected for decades they're like see

342
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:34,560
this is more of what we knew was going

343
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:36,000
on but which the government didn't admit

344
00:12:40,949 --> 00:12:39,040
to and through popular demand we have

345
00:12:42,949 --> 00:12:40,959
now in recent days seen lawmakers

346
00:12:44,550 --> 00:12:42,959
getting into the game and saying okay

347
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:44,560
the people want to know they have a

348
00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:46,320
right to know we as representatives of

349
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:48,160
those people should do everything in our

350
00:12:52,150 --> 00:12:50,399
power to try and bring more transparency

351
00:12:54,230 --> 00:12:52,160
to these issues and it's led to the

352
00:12:55,269 --> 00:12:54,240
establishment in 2020 of the uap task

353
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:55,279
force

354
00:13:00,310 --> 00:12:58,639
already in operation before that but it

355
00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:00,320
was given a formal name

356
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:02,160
and it was made public

357
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,839
then of course after that we had the

358
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:05,600
establishment of the airborne object

359
00:13:09,430 --> 00:13:06,800
identification management and

360
00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:09,440
synchronization group under the dod

361
00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:11,760
most memorable name ever and that name

362
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:13,760
now has been changed for reasons that

363
00:13:17,430 --> 00:13:15,519
are pretty obvious i think and i think

364
00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:17,440
that what we have now is the all domain

365
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:19,600
anomaly resolution office i think that's

366
00:13:22,310 --> 00:13:20,959
the latest name that we've given to it

367
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:22,320
and that was just announced in recent

368
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:25,200
days uh my personal opinion is of course

369
00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:28,000
these less than memorable names are with

370
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:29,279
the intent of people not being able to

371
00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:30,720
remember or pronounce them but you know

372
00:13:34,470 --> 00:13:32,480
that all that said i'm just happy that

373
00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:34,480
there are efforts now

374
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:36,800
through legislation uh particularly

375
00:13:40,790 --> 00:13:38,560
aimed at not only collecting information

376
00:13:43,269 --> 00:13:40,800
but at least where it is applicable and

377
00:13:44,949 --> 00:13:43,279
where it is not in conflict with

378
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:44,959
national security interests that the

379
00:13:48,389 --> 00:13:46,560
american people will be told about this

380
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:48,399
phenomenon but again the point here is

381
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:50,800
that well okay cool this is a big

382
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:52,320
development for a lot of people in a new

383
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:54,079
thing ufos weren't real until all of a

384
00:13:56,949 --> 00:13:55,360
sudden a few years ago when the

385
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:56,959
government started taking it seriously

386
00:14:00,949 --> 00:13:58,880
now they're they're here they're real

387
00:14:02,069 --> 00:14:00,959
people are studying it a lot of skeptics

388
00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:02,079
maintained doesn't matter what the

389
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:03,440
government says there's nothing to see

390
00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:05,519
here you see these same sorts of

391
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:07,360
instances of paradigmatic thinking that

392
00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:09,120
i'm talking about but

393
00:14:13,350 --> 00:14:11,279
wherever people may sit on this

394
00:14:15,350 --> 00:14:13,360
in the spectrum of belief or skepticism

395
00:14:16,550 --> 00:14:15,360
the broader public narrative here seems

396
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:16,560
to be that

397
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:18,480
there has been a phenomenon but it's

398
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:19,920
kind of gone through a glass ceiling

399
00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:21,440
moment and as it's broken through that

400
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:23,360
we're seeing one of these paradigm

401
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:25,680
shifts in a very literal sense

402
00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:27,680
now i would contend that there are other

403
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:30,000
subjects that like ufos and uap long

404
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:31,519
have been worthy of

405
00:14:34,949 --> 00:14:33,120
they too should be deserving of that

406
00:14:36,389 --> 00:14:34,959
kind of attention and at this point now

407
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:36,399
i think we can with that behind us

408
00:14:41,189 --> 00:14:38,959
discuss how i think the relict hominoid

409
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:41,199
concept may one day also prove to be a

410
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:43,120
similar phenomena here on earth on this

411
00:14:47,269 --> 00:14:44,480
strange earth

412
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:47,279
that is often ignored but which is

413
00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:49,519
less difficult i think to accept in the

414
00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:51,120
idea of for instance a concept like

415
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:53,440
alien and visitation and yet people seem

416
00:14:59,189 --> 00:14:57,199
paradoxically more uh resistant to it

417
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:59,199
and it's interesting i already feel like

418
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:00,560
we need to send you a check for that

419
00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:02,800
contribution right there nathan well all

420
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:04,639
right well he'll disperse

421
00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:06,240
but yeah take it away

422
00:15:09,670 --> 00:15:07,680
yeah michael say thank you for joining

423
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:09,680
us and uh thank you colleagues as well

424
00:15:14,550 --> 00:15:11,600
for the work that you guys have put into

425
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:14,560
this uh field uh i think the debrief is

426
00:15:18,150 --> 00:15:16,480
just doing great great work and i love

427
00:15:20,310 --> 00:15:18,160
the multi-disciplinary approach that you

428
00:15:21,829 --> 00:15:20,320
take to your reporting so kudos to that

429
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:21,839
and of course we always look forward to

430
00:15:24,870 --> 00:15:23,440
the next uh

431
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:24,880
sort of late breaking piece i know

432
00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:26,079
there's always one in the wing so we're

433
00:15:29,509 --> 00:15:27,920
excited to see what's coming up um i

434
00:15:30,790 --> 00:15:29,519
think your your kind of background there

435
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,800
was really helpful and it's weird

436
00:15:34,389 --> 00:15:32,240
because it's sort of synchronistic to

437
00:15:36,389 --> 00:15:34,399
what i was going to ask you and that is

438
00:15:37,749 --> 00:15:36,399
that there is uh

439
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:37,759
if you look at the sort of history of

440
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:40,560
scientific discovery right uh there are

441
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:42,880
discoveries which precede the just the

442
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:44,560
current sort of understanding the

443
00:15:49,110 --> 00:15:46,880
current paradigms that we operate within

444
00:15:51,670 --> 00:15:49,120
you can't you can't go from point a to

445
00:15:54,790 --> 00:15:51,680
point z without going through b c d e

446
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:54,800
etc right so i i wonder what your sort

447
00:16:00,230 --> 00:15:57,839
of feeling your intuition is about where

448
00:16:01,670 --> 00:16:00,240
we are kind of in that journey to where

449
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:01,680
we probably

450
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:04,079
need to be in order to really understand

451
00:16:07,269 --> 00:16:05,040
the kind of

452
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:07,279
scope the complexity of various

453
00:16:12,069 --> 00:16:09,440
phenomena that that just happened to

454
00:16:14,069 --> 00:16:12,079
exist do you think that we are that we

455
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:14,079
have filled in the right gaps at this

456
00:16:18,550 --> 00:16:16,160
point in our in our models and our

457
00:16:20,470 --> 00:16:18,560
paradigms to be able to really get our

458
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:20,480
arms around exactly whatever this

459
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:22,079
happens to be or do you think we have

460
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:24,480
several stepping stones left to go

461
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:25,839
i think we do have several stepping

462
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:28,079
stones nathan and really quickly by the

463
00:16:31,509 --> 00:16:30,240
way you're in north carolina i am yeah

464
00:16:32,949 --> 00:16:31,519
we're going to get to that well actually

465
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:32,959
we could get to it now so

466
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:34,800
i'm not mentioning we can get to right

467
00:16:37,829 --> 00:16:36,000
now i remember you mentioning on a show

468
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:37,839
that you might be living near brown

469
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:40,399
mountain is that right uh-huh yeah so

470
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:43,279
i'm uh i'm a little bit west of there uh

471
00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:44,399
oh okay

472
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:46,720
yeah so we may if you're if you're in

473
00:16:49,990 --> 00:16:48,079
the area maybe we should grab a beer

474
00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:50,000
sometime oh we will definitely do that

475
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:51,360
and in fact sometimes if i'm doing a

476
00:16:54,470 --> 00:16:52,639
viewing down at brown mountain you're

477
00:16:56,069 --> 00:16:54,480
welcome just to tag along i do know of a

478
00:16:57,749 --> 00:16:56,079
group of researchers and fellow

479
00:16:58,870 --> 00:16:57,759
podcasters who intend to go down there

480
00:17:00,069 --> 00:16:58,880
and so but we can come back around and

481
00:17:01,910 --> 00:17:00,079
talk about that later i just wanted to

482
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:01,920
clarify that so uh yeah good always good

483
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:03,600
to know a local that said

484
00:17:07,829 --> 00:17:05,679
um let me let me jump in real let me

485
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:07,839
jump in here quick so exo academia if

486
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:09,760
you're familiar with him micah

487
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:12,799
and nathan both uh have met through our

488
00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:15,520
medium of of well we had him on the show

489
00:17:18,390 --> 00:17:17,360
and found out that he lived in the blue

490
00:17:20,870 --> 00:17:18,400
ridge mountain

491
00:17:23,189 --> 00:17:20,880
area also you know near asheville lake

492
00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:23,199
and so they started getting together uh

493
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,360
bi-weekly for either a beer or coffee

494
00:17:29,750 --> 00:17:27,760
depending upon the time of day and from

495
00:17:31,270 --> 00:17:29,760
from the moment that started we're like

496
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:31,280
oh my god how awesome would it be to

497
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:34,640
have micah hanks join in on that and so

498
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,360
yeah

499
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:37,440
yep there you go i'm sorry go ahead

500
00:17:40,630 --> 00:17:39,120
that's okay i would be delighted always

501
00:17:42,950 --> 00:17:40,640
up for a beer or a coffee and i'd do

502
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:42,960
almost either well actually i would do

503
00:17:46,789 --> 00:17:45,360
um almost any time of day either of

504
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,799
those if it weren't for a couple of

505
00:17:50,549 --> 00:17:48,799
factors one being the coffee late in the

506
00:17:52,390 --> 00:17:50,559
day uh will prevent me from sleeping but

507
00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:52,400
then again you know my mind's usually

508
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:53,679
racing and i don't sleep that well

509
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:55,440
anyway uh but you know coming back to

510
00:17:59,669 --> 00:17:57,120
nathan's question again you know do we

511
00:18:02,630 --> 00:17:59,679
have some stepping stones yet to to uh

512
00:18:04,230 --> 00:18:02,640
to uh traverse and i do think we do i'll

513
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:04,240
start again with you ap and i think that

514
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:05,520
throughout this conversation i'll

515
00:18:08,789 --> 00:18:06,799
probably jump back and forth between the

516
00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:08,799
topics because i see that there are some

517
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:11,360
parallels and when people often ask me

518
00:18:15,029 --> 00:18:12,640
what do you think the connection between

519
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:15,039
bigfoot right uh using the popular

520
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:17,440
colloquial term here in america and uh

521
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:20,000
and and uap or ufos is uh do you think

522
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:21,440
that these things are the similar

523
00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:23,440
phenomena do they both stem from some

524
00:18:27,909 --> 00:18:26,000
unified theory of the paranormal no i

525
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:27,919
don't think so i think they're entirely

526
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:30,000
separate uh i have a lot of colleagues

527
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:31,760
and friends who would argue

528
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:33,440
otherwise

529
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:35,440
if i were shown good evidence of that

530
00:18:38,230 --> 00:18:36,799
you know that would be wonderful are

531
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:38,240
there ways that one might collect that

532
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:40,080
evidence sure probably how would you do

533
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:42,000
it i don't know the problem seems to be

534
00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:42,880
that

535
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:46,320
we see when people try to kind of

536
00:18:50,150 --> 00:18:48,160
combine phenomena

537
00:18:51,669 --> 00:18:50,160
is that when you when you say that one

538
00:18:53,110 --> 00:18:51,679
thing is strange and anomalous and

539
00:18:55,270 --> 00:18:53,120
another thing is strange and anomalous

540
00:18:57,270 --> 00:18:55,280
therefore they must be related

541
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:57,280
um you know that's that's kind of like

542
00:18:59,510 --> 00:18:58,559
saying

543
00:19:01,590 --> 00:18:59,520
well i don't know i could give you all

544
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,600
kinds of different uh you know examples

545
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:03,360
but i think the primary point is is that

546
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:05,760
two negatives don't equal a positive two

547
00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:08,559
things that may seem anomalous uh if you

548
00:19:11,350 --> 00:19:09,919
if you say that well they're they're

549
00:19:13,029 --> 00:19:11,360
both paranormal and they're therefore

550
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:13,039
connected that doesn't necessarily help

551
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:14,080
us

552
00:19:17,350 --> 00:19:16,240
resolve either by saying they're

553
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,360
connected and they're they're part of

554
00:19:21,669 --> 00:19:19,760
the same weirdness now they may be the

555
00:19:22,870 --> 00:19:21,679
approach i prefer to take however is

556
00:19:25,270 --> 00:19:22,880
let's look at each phenomenon

557
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:25,280
individually and sometimes even subsets

558
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:26,720
of phenomena within what might be

559
00:19:30,310 --> 00:19:29,120
considered a single discipline right

560
00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:30,320
and let's look at those things

561
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:32,720
individually so that we don't

562
00:19:37,430 --> 00:19:35,840
find ourselves leading with presumptions

563
00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:37,440
that we make about these things due to

564
00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:38,480
their connection

565
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,360
purportedly allegedly to other phenomena

566
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:43,360
so um but i do think that it's important

567
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:45,520
in terms of analyzing any topic that you

568
00:19:49,029 --> 00:19:47,760
make comparisons and it's really great i

569
00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:49,039
find it's really useful when we're

570
00:19:52,230 --> 00:19:50,480
talking about the relic hominoid thing

571
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:52,240
or sasquatch to say look at what's

572
00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:54,000
happening with ufos right now and how we

573
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:55,120
have gotten to this point of at least

574
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:57,600
public recognition now how could we do

575
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:59,280
that with another topic like sasquatch

576
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,440
so again to begin with ufos and to point

577
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:03,280
out some of the stepping stones that we

578
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:05,039
have we've made our way to but that

579
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:07,280
probably await us ahead as well

580
00:20:10,149 --> 00:20:08,320
we have to really take into

581
00:20:12,549 --> 00:20:10,159
consideration that although cultural

582
00:20:14,149 --> 00:20:12,559
opinions about ufos and various swathes

583
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,159
of the public have always been very

584
00:20:17,909 --> 00:20:15,760
prone toward thinking that hey there is

585
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:17,919
something to this whatever it may be

586
00:20:21,270 --> 00:20:19,600
now we're also to a point where i mean

587
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,280
lawmakers are actively trying to

588
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:23,760
legislate and to try and uh obtain

589
00:20:27,029 --> 00:20:25,120
information that they believe government

590
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:27,039
may already have we do know that

591
00:20:30,789 --> 00:20:28,559
whatever the government may be hiding

592
00:20:32,789 --> 00:20:30,799
and again that's not a impossibility

593
00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:32,799
there's a very good chance that there's

594
00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:34,640
data i strongly suspect that there's

595
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:36,480
quite a bit that the governments have

596
00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:38,080
collected about uap

597
00:20:40,950 --> 00:20:39,280
that may not

598
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:40,960
you know give us a full picture of what

599
00:20:44,789 --> 00:20:42,799
it is where it's from what it represents

600
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:44,799
to humanity or otherwise but it

601
00:20:48,549 --> 00:20:46,320
definitely probably is more than the

602
00:20:49,350 --> 00:20:48,559
public has access to

603
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:49,360
um

604
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:51,760
but what we also see is an active effort

605
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:53,280
on part of the dod with the

606
00:20:57,510 --> 00:20:55,520
establishment of groups like amsog and

607
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:57,520
the more recent aaro

608
00:21:01,270 --> 00:20:59,679
its predecessor the uap task force

609
00:21:03,270 --> 00:21:01,280
they're actively collecting right now

610
00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:03,280
and they're trying to encourage

611
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:05,280
members of the military to come forward

612
00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:06,880
and talk about things that in the past

613
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:08,400
due to stigmas that prevailed against

614
00:21:11,750 --> 00:21:10,080
this subject they didn't feel like they

615
00:21:13,510 --> 00:21:11,760
could talk about and many members of the

616
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:13,520
military still

617
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:15,520
will not come out and talk about things

618
00:21:19,830 --> 00:21:18,480
great example um dave's sex fraver right

619
00:21:21,430 --> 00:21:19,840
that was his nickname his call name

620
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:21,440
right when he was in the in the air

621
00:21:27,590 --> 00:21:24,080
force dave fraver the the famous pilot

622
00:21:29,350 --> 00:21:27,600
who uh had famously attempted to you

623
00:21:31,750 --> 00:21:29,360
know fly down take a closer look at this

624
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:31,760
so-called tic tac during the 2004 nimitz

625
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:32,880
incident

626
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:34,880
fravor has always been public about that

627
00:21:39,590 --> 00:21:37,440
story he had told it to friends you know

628
00:21:41,270 --> 00:21:39,600
while having a beer uh his buddy paco

629
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:41,280
chirichi had written an article about it

630
00:21:45,830 --> 00:21:43,120
at the fighter sweep website like way

631
00:21:47,350 --> 00:21:45,840
back in like 2015 i think that story

632
00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:47,360
been out in the wild and online for

633
00:21:50,950 --> 00:21:49,440
years as had been the footage that was

634
00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:50,960
captured by then

635
00:21:54,310 --> 00:21:52,400
i think he held lieutenant rank but now

636
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:54,320
he's commander chad underwood

637
00:21:57,270 --> 00:21:55,120
um

638
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:57,280
that video had literally been leaked and

639
00:21:59,909 --> 00:21:58,480
the reason why nobody took any

640
00:22:01,270 --> 00:21:59,919
disciplinary action about the leak of

641
00:22:02,789 --> 00:22:01,280
that video is because oh well you know

642
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:02,799
it's not classified

643
00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:03,919
that should tell you a lot about the way

644
00:22:07,510 --> 00:22:05,600
that the military approaches some of

645
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:07,520
this ufo data wow we got a video of

646
00:22:11,029 --> 00:22:09,360
something what is it well

647
00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:11,039
well i don't know so it's not classified

648
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:12,320
that video had been out in the wild for

649
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:13,760
a number of years

650
00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:16,000
but alex dietrich

651
00:22:21,029 --> 00:22:18,720
the other lead pilot i think that um

652
00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:21,039
fravor dietrich's weapons systems

653
00:22:26,149 --> 00:22:23,840
officer maybe at some point also uh

654
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:26,159
fravor's weapon systems officer they had

655
00:22:30,310 --> 00:22:28,559
had less issue talking about it but alex

656
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:30,320
dietrich did not want publicly to be

657
00:22:33,909 --> 00:22:32,159
associated with that

658
00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:33,919
and she didn't come out

659
00:22:37,669 --> 00:22:35,760
openly although a few people journalists

660
00:22:38,950 --> 00:22:37,679
like myself of course knew her name many

661
00:22:41,669 --> 00:22:38,960
people did

662
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:41,679
she didn't come out until the famous 60

663
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:44,320
minutes program on uap that came came

664
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:45,840
out i guess was a little more than a

665
00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:47,039
year ago right

666
00:22:50,230 --> 00:22:48,159
um

667
00:22:51,590 --> 00:22:50,240
these stigmas are what i think in a lot

668
00:22:53,029 --> 00:22:51,600
of ways

669
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:53,039
prevent

670
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,360
progress and and the military recognizes

671
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:57,280
that and so it's more important

672
00:23:01,270 --> 00:22:59,200
i think that they are working

673
00:23:02,470 --> 00:23:01,280
to overcome those stigmas even that it

674
00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:02,480
is in some ways that they are now

675
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:04,880
collecting data openly about this even

676
00:23:08,630 --> 00:23:06,000
if they don't share everything that

677
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:08,640
they're open about collecting um now

678
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,960
that is important in the context of

679
00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:12,320
looking at something like sasquatch

680
00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:14,559
because if you say today any of us walk

681
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:16,720
into a bar right what do you do for a

682
00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:18,080
living well i'm a researcher what are

683
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:19,760
your research well you know strange

684
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:21,760
stuff okay now this conversation could

685
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:24,000
go one of two ways if i say

686
00:23:26,710 --> 00:23:25,200
i'm really interested in the way that

687
00:23:28,789 --> 00:23:26,720
the military

688
00:23:30,230 --> 00:23:28,799
is studying unidentified aerial

689
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:30,240
phenomena

690
00:23:33,669 --> 00:23:32,080
right now in our cultural environment a

691
00:23:35,830 --> 00:23:33,679
lot of people would be like this oh wow

692
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:35,840
that's fascinating really huh have you

693
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:37,360
spoken with officials do you know

694
00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:38,320
anything

695
00:23:42,070 --> 00:23:40,880
uh you know have you seen one yourself

696
00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:42,080
but if on the other hand we're sitting

697
00:23:44,950 --> 00:23:43,520
down we're having that beer nathan and i

698
00:23:47,430 --> 00:23:44,960
are in a bar somewhere and what he's

699
00:23:50,230 --> 00:23:47,440
what did you do mr hanks and i said well

700
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:50,240
i study uh the idea that uh there is a

701
00:23:54,549 --> 00:23:52,720
large undiscovered primate that walks on

702
00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:54,559
two legs that lives right here in north

703
00:23:58,950 --> 00:23:56,559
america and that people have claimed to

704
00:24:00,789 --> 00:23:58,960
see these including government officials

705
00:24:02,630 --> 00:24:00,799
uh which of those two ideas are people

706
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:02,640
gonna be more likely to laugh at think

707
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:04,960
about that you know

708
00:24:09,510 --> 00:24:07,440
sasquatch is often

709
00:24:11,590 --> 00:24:09,520
immediately ascribed to the mythical the

710
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:11,600
mythical ape creature

711
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:14,480
known as bigfooter sasquatch

712
00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:15,919
whereas again

713
00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:18,640
taking a couple of objective steps back

714
00:24:22,950 --> 00:24:20,720
you know let's look at what ufos might

715
00:24:25,669 --> 00:24:22,960
be right again a popular theory the

716
00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:25,679
extraterrestrial hypothesis okay what if

717
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:27,039
these things are e.t and they're

718
00:24:30,789 --> 00:24:29,120
visiting earth i often point out to

719
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:30,799
people listen guys we have trained our

720
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:32,400
telescopes on distant stars we've now

721
00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:34,480
got the most advanced science uh

722
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:36,640
observatory out there at lagrange point

723
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:38,640
to the james webb space telescope

724
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:40,640
peering out to the boundaries of our

725
00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:42,960
universe and back in time 13.5 billion

726
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:45,039
years and we have not yet found any

727
00:24:49,190 --> 00:24:48,080
conclusive evidence of intelligent life

728
00:24:52,630 --> 00:24:49,200
anywhere

729
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:52,640
know some interesting things that are

730
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:54,960
suggestive of habitable regions we've

731
00:24:59,110 --> 00:24:56,880
even found these enigmatic fast radio

732
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:59,120
bursts and things that some

733
00:25:03,830 --> 00:25:01,279
interpret as being evidence of beacons

734
00:25:06,310 --> 00:25:03,840
or some kind of a optical kind of uh

735
00:25:07,590 --> 00:25:06,320
seti being directed outward toward us as

736
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:07,600
opposed to

737
00:25:10,710 --> 00:25:09,200
the ones that we the messages that we

738
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:10,720
might send which actually would entail

739
00:25:13,269 --> 00:25:12,080
medi not seti but that's a different

740
00:25:14,549 --> 00:25:13,279
conversation

741
00:25:15,909 --> 00:25:14,559
you know again we haven't found anything

742
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:15,919
that we can conclusively say well we

743
00:25:19,350 --> 00:25:17,360
know where the intelligence is coming

744
00:25:21,269 --> 00:25:19,360
from right and therefore many

745
00:25:23,590 --> 00:25:21,279
astronomers would maintain well we don't

746
00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:23,600
have evidence of extraterrestrials now

747
00:25:26,950 --> 00:25:25,360
to me that's not the only evidence or

748
00:25:28,710 --> 00:25:26,960
lack thereof that should be considered

749
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:28,720
right and i think ufo proponents would

750
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:30,080
argue the same but the point i'm trying

751
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:31,919
to make is that we don't have any kind

752
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:34,000
of scientific data really as yet that we

753
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,559
know of that corroborates the claims of

754
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:38,320
those experiencers who have said hey

755
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:39,520
look you know there's a phenomenon we

756
00:25:42,630 --> 00:25:40,799
don't have to look through telescopes

757
00:25:44,390 --> 00:25:42,640
it's right here on earth it's operating

758
00:25:46,789 --> 00:25:44,400
within our atmosphere and hundreds

759
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:46,799
thousands maybe you know tens of

760
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:48,400
thousands of people

761
00:25:51,909 --> 00:25:50,240
have experiences with this pretty

762
00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:51,919
frequently

763
00:25:57,430 --> 00:25:55,279
that really requires a lot of of

764
00:25:58,390 --> 00:25:57,440
speculation to draw those conclusions

765
00:25:59,830 --> 00:25:58,400
right

766
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,840
even though it may be likely we don't

767
00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:01,760
have evidence that supports

768
00:26:07,110 --> 00:26:04,000
life from other worlds coming here

769
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,120
whereas paradoxically sasquatch okay

770
00:26:11,190 --> 00:26:09,200
cool walks upright just like humans does

771
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:11,200
not look unlike other higher primates

772
00:26:14,190 --> 00:26:12,559
like gorillas

773
00:26:16,149 --> 00:26:14,200
there are evidences of creatures in the

774
00:26:18,310 --> 00:26:16,159
paleoanthropological record that existed

775
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:18,320
as recently as the last uh geological

776
00:26:22,470 --> 00:26:21,200
epoch the pleistocene i.e the ice age

777
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:22,480
that resemble

778
00:26:26,549 --> 00:26:24,480
what people say sasquatch looks like

779
00:26:28,470 --> 00:26:26,559
those who claim to have seen it so uh

780
00:26:31,269 --> 00:26:28,480
not only is sasquatch something that

781
00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:31,279
could exist within the the spectrum of

782
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:33,440
life that we know to exist on earth past

783
00:26:36,149 --> 00:26:34,640
and present

784
00:26:38,149 --> 00:26:36,159
but there are creatures there that are

785
00:26:40,070 --> 00:26:38,159
very like sasquatch that are extant

786
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:40,080
today well but we know there are no

787
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:42,000
primates in north america hello look in

788
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,440
the mirror you know so again it's it's

789
00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:45,200
funny how people's attitudes they're so

790
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:46,640
accepting of something that actually

791
00:26:50,870 --> 00:26:49,039
requires far more speculation

792
00:26:53,110 --> 00:26:50,880
than the concept that there may be a

793
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:53,120
body of data that suggests that people

794
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:55,840
have observed and undiscovered primate

795
00:27:00,149 --> 00:26:57,840
not unlike humans but seemingly more

796
00:27:01,830 --> 00:27:00,159
primitive and that it might have existed

797
00:27:03,590 --> 00:27:01,840
at least until recently perhaps still

798
00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:03,600
exists even today

799
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,360
that to me we might call the sasquatch

800
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:07,840
paradox

801
00:27:10,470 --> 00:27:08,640
so

802
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,480
micah there's a couple things that you

803
00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:12,320
started off with that were very

804
00:27:16,470 --> 00:27:14,240
interesting to me you know as i said i

805
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:16,480
was listening to your show and i think

806
00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:18,880
it was is was it i don't think it was mr

807
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:21,039
bowman it was mr weatherly

808
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:23,600
that told uh the narrative of he and his

809
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:24,799
friends

810
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:26,880
that went into the woods and to make a

811
00:27:30,630 --> 00:27:28,559
long story short they were looking for a

812
00:27:31,990 --> 00:27:30,640
witch's house which they found and on

813
00:27:33,750 --> 00:27:32,000
their way out

814
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:33,760
which unfortunately didn't happen before

815
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:36,960
it got dark out um they did uh have

816
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:40,240
visual contact with uh what they believe

817
00:27:45,029 --> 00:27:43,039
was was a bigfoot or sasquatch and by

818
00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:45,039
the way i love i find that name very

819
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:47,440
enduring so i actually love it um i

820
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,200
don't look at it as anything that's

821
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:51,440
demeaning in any way to unless he told

822
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:52,799
me that then i'd be like well i won't

823
00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:54,159
call you that anymore

824
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:55,600
but anyway

825
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:58,559
um or she if that were the case but in

826
00:28:02,230 --> 00:27:59,919
any case

827
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:02,240
um one of the interesting parallels was

828
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,960
that uh upon that sighting uh mr

829
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:08,799
weatherly heard that

830
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:10,640
much like the when people interact with

831
00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:13,760
the phenomenon out in in rural areas no

832
00:28:18,149 --> 00:28:16,080
sound of crickets no sound of wildlife

833
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:18,159
all of a sudden the forest becomes

834
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:20,720
silent so that was one parallel that i

835
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:22,559
found very interesting listening to that

836
00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:24,960
episode and the other one is i would

837
00:28:29,029 --> 00:28:26,559
direct you to and i know you're familiar

838
00:28:31,029 --> 00:28:29,039
with this is the navajo ranger jonathan

839
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:31,039
dover who i know you're i'm positive

840
00:28:33,909 --> 00:28:33,120
that you're familiar with what he has

841
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:33,919
said

842
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:37,360
sasquatch on

843
00:28:43,510 --> 00:28:40,240
several occasions uh and that his

844
00:28:46,389 --> 00:28:43,520
favorite thing to track was humans uh

845
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:46,399
until he discovered uh the tracks of

846
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:49,120
sasquatch and he would find that on at

847
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:51,200
least a couple of occasions he would

848
00:28:55,350 --> 00:28:53,679
track it to an open field

849
00:28:58,630 --> 00:28:55,360
and then all of a sudden the tracks

850
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:58,640
disappear and that is the first time

851
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:00,960
that led me to believe about the

852
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,679
possible interdimensional nature where

853
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:05,760
it could be here and then it could be

854
00:29:10,710 --> 00:29:07,760
elsewhere you know totally existing in

855
00:29:12,389 --> 00:29:10,720
our reality and walking around and and

856
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:12,399
living and then maybe

857
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:13,840
going somewhere else i had never even

858
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:15,360
considered before that so i'm curious

859
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,600
what your your take is on those two

860
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:18,720
parallels

861
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:20,960
sure okay that's an interesting topic

862
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:22,880
again uh you know i'll

863
00:29:26,149 --> 00:29:24,559
make a reference to my good pal joshua

864
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:26,159
cutchen who wrote a book i believe

865
00:29:31,510 --> 00:29:27,840
called where the footprints and

866
00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:31,520
co-authored with jeremy renner um and

867
00:29:36,389 --> 00:29:34,880
and the whole premise of this uh this

868
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:36,399
series of books is

869
00:29:39,029 --> 00:29:37,600
that there is something more to

870
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:39,039
sasquatch than a physical flesh and

871
00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:41,200
blood biological organism

872
00:29:44,310 --> 00:29:42,799
i've got a lot of colleagues who who

873
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:44,320
would say the same nick redfern who's

874
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:46,320
another one of those researchers who

875
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:48,480
like myself

876
00:29:52,230 --> 00:29:50,640
can't stick with just one topic and is

877
00:29:54,070 --> 00:29:52,240
more than happy to to kind of jump

878
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,080
around you know you're either uap or

879
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:56,399
it's nothing baby no no no you know i'm

880
00:30:00,070 --> 00:29:58,000
interested in all of it and so is nick

881
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,080
and uh and nick has come back around to

882
00:30:04,389 --> 00:30:02,480
saying that there's something paranormal

883
00:30:06,630 --> 00:30:04,399
about sasquatch but now

884
00:30:08,149 --> 00:30:06,640
uh to go in that direction if you really

885
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:08,159
talk with nick about it nick and i have

886
00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:10,080
spoken about this many times

887
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:12,000
he will tell you that

888
00:30:16,310 --> 00:30:13,840
when i say there's something paranormal

889
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:16,320
about sasquatch it's that again this is

890
00:30:19,510 --> 00:30:18,399
not me saying this this is this is nick

891
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,520
redfern

892
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:21,679
he says it's that there may be something

893
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:24,399
about the behavior of this creature

894
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:27,840
um or other characteristics it possesses

895
00:30:31,430 --> 00:30:29,919
that we don't understand okay in other

896
00:30:33,350 --> 00:30:31,440
words paranormal could be defined as

897
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:33,360
simply something that is scientifically

898
00:30:37,909 --> 00:30:35,279
as yet not understood which really i

899
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:37,919
mean most phenomena in nature begin as

900
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:39,679
what we would call paranormal or

901
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:41,760
supernatural until we you know study

902
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:44,399
them um unravel those mysteries

903
00:30:47,909 --> 00:30:45,600
understand them and then they become

904
00:30:49,669 --> 00:30:47,919
natural right um so he says essentially

905
00:30:51,909 --> 00:30:49,679
there may be something

906
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:51,919
that science does not yet understand

907
00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:53,520
that could account for

908
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:55,200
the peculiar

909
00:30:59,269 --> 00:30:57,519
side of sasquatch research um and i

910
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:59,279
think that that's a reasonable prop of a

911
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:00,960
proposition but you know then you if you

912
00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:02,799
go over and you speak to a

913
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:05,440
you know a anthropologist like dr

914
00:31:09,269 --> 00:31:07,120
jeffrey meldrum of idaho state

915
00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:09,279
university and again you know i'm

916
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,799
actually a little more on the jeff

917
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:12,559
meldrum side of things but dr meldrum

918
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:14,640
would say well you know there may be

919
00:31:18,710 --> 00:31:16,399
other things that are known that could

920
00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:18,720
account for why sasquatch is perceived

921
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:20,720
as being paranormal and we don't have to

922
00:31:24,470 --> 00:31:22,960
suppose that it possesses superpowers or

923
00:31:26,549 --> 00:31:24,480
characteristics that aren't understood

924
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:26,559
within the scope of other biological

925
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:28,080
organisms we've looked at to account for

926
00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:29,840
these things so the next question would

927
00:31:33,669 --> 00:31:31,440
be how do we do that

928
00:31:36,310 --> 00:31:33,679
my colleague matt pruitt of the north

929
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:36,320
american wood ape conservancy and also a

930
00:31:39,630 --> 00:31:37,919
great independent researcher in his own

931
00:31:41,830 --> 00:31:39,640
right and one of the best

932
00:31:45,029 --> 00:31:41,840
science-minded independent researchers

933
00:31:47,669 --> 00:31:45,039
in my view who looks at this phenomenon

934
00:31:49,990 --> 00:31:47,679
matt has really done a lot of work

935
00:31:52,230 --> 00:31:50,000
looking at the way that indigenous

936
00:31:55,509 --> 00:31:52,240
traditional beliefs

937
00:31:58,310 --> 00:31:55,519
view known creatures even animals like

938
00:32:00,950 --> 00:31:58,320
grizzly bear tigers and lions they are

939
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:00,960
often viewed by people

940
00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:03,120
in various cultures as having mystical

941
00:32:06,549 --> 00:32:05,120
qualities and he says it's very clear if

942
00:32:08,070 --> 00:32:06,559
you actually observe the behaviors of

943
00:32:09,909 --> 00:32:08,080
creatures like this as to why people

944
00:32:11,909 --> 00:32:09,919
would think that way a tiger for

945
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:11,919
instance is very large

946
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:13,440
very colorful

947
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:15,840
and yet they are incredibly quiet they

948
00:32:18,789 --> 00:32:17,440
are very good hunters they wouldn't be

949
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,799
able to survive if they weren't able to

950
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:20,559
move very stealthily

951
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:22,880
but they are also creatures that you

952
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:24,640
respect because you fear them they will

953
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:25,600
kill you

954
00:32:28,149 --> 00:32:26,960
and so the important thing to remember

955
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:28,159
here is that when you've got an animal

956
00:32:31,590 --> 00:32:30,240
that is both deadly but silent it's

957
00:32:34,149 --> 00:32:31,600
colorful

958
00:32:36,870 --> 00:32:34,159
unlike any other animal in appearance

959
00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:36,880
but also capable of hiding and it's very

960
00:32:40,310 --> 00:32:38,640
good at doing that and springing out of

961
00:32:41,110 --> 00:32:40,320
nowhere and capturing and killing its

962
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:41,120
prey

963
00:32:43,990 --> 00:32:42,559
it's very easy to see why people would

964
00:32:45,750 --> 00:32:44,000
describe an almost supernatural

965
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:45,760
characteristic to it but now coming back

966
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:46,960
to what you described and i've met some

967
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:48,720
of the navajo rangers they're fantastic

968
00:32:51,669 --> 00:32:50,640
guys we've we've had a conversation or

969
00:32:53,350 --> 00:32:51,679
two

970
00:32:55,909 --> 00:32:53,360
and and some of those stories of

971
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:55,919
tracking footprints to a location and

972
00:32:59,110 --> 00:32:57,200
then they just kind of vanish the

973
00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:59,120
earliest account i've seen of of that

974
00:33:01,990 --> 00:33:00,480
kind of thing

975
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:02,000
probably actually was

976
00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:04,240
um in the recollections of fred beck

977
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:05,840
fred beck was one of the miners who

978
00:33:10,549 --> 00:33:08,480
during i guess it was the 1924 incident

979
00:33:13,029 --> 00:33:10,559
there at uh mount st helens the

980
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:13,039
so-called ape canyon incident a group of

981
00:33:16,870 --> 00:33:15,279
miners went up there they began to see

982
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:16,880
these things that they called mountain

983
00:33:19,590 --> 00:33:17,919
devils

984
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:19,600
um again for the people who say

985
00:33:22,789 --> 00:33:21,120
historically speaking that no

986
00:33:24,230 --> 00:33:22,799
descriptions and there have been

987
00:33:25,830 --> 00:33:24,240
scholars by the way let me just make a

988
00:33:27,110 --> 00:33:25,840
brief aside here scholars who have tried

989
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:27,120
to argue that

990
00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:29,039
the giant ape-like appearance of

991
00:33:33,590 --> 00:33:31,840
sasquatch that we all recognize today

992
00:33:35,710 --> 00:33:33,600
that never appeared anywhere in print

993
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:35,720
they say until

994
00:33:41,590 --> 00:33:39,279
1958 and that uh and even then it was it

995
00:33:44,070 --> 00:33:41,600
was only implied but really the the full

996
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:44,080
hairy sasquatch description really

997
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:46,720
didn't show up until 19

998
00:33:50,549 --> 00:33:48,960
the incident i guess happened in 1955

999
00:33:53,350 --> 00:33:50,559
but it was after that that it made

1000
00:33:55,750 --> 00:33:53,360
headlines a hunter in canada named

1001
00:33:57,269 --> 00:33:55,760
william rowe he gave us a full vivid

1002
00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:57,279
description of an ape-like creature and

1003
00:34:00,549 --> 00:33:58,320
before that

1004
00:34:01,990 --> 00:34:00,559
probably none that describe a hairy

1005
00:34:03,190 --> 00:34:02,000
ape-like sasquatch that's that's

1006
00:34:05,029 --> 00:34:03,200
nonsense

1007
00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:05,039
and yet there have been scholarly

1008
00:34:09,990 --> 00:34:07,679
skeptical analyses that lead with that

1009
00:34:11,270 --> 00:34:10,000
that ridiculously absurdly incorrect

1010
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:11,280
statement now

1011
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:12,399
um

1012
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:13,280
if you go back and you read the

1013
00:34:16,550 --> 00:34:14,560
newspaper accounts of the mount st

1014
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:16,560
helens incident from 1924 they called

1015
00:34:20,230 --> 00:34:18,240
him mountain devils because keep in mind

1016
00:34:22,629 --> 00:34:20,240
it wasn't until five years later with

1017
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,639
the publication of an article uh called

1018
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:24,320
introducing british columbia's hairy

1019
00:34:28,230 --> 00:34:27,200
giants by william or or jw burns i'm

1020
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:28,240
sorry

1021
00:34:33,270 --> 00:34:30,720
jw burns in mclean's magazine that that

1022
00:34:34,550 --> 00:34:33,280
was the first to describe what he called

1023
00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:34,560
sasquatch

1024
00:34:38,310 --> 00:34:36,159
that was a canadian publication he was

1025
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:38,320
describing stories told to him by

1026
00:34:42,790 --> 00:34:40,960
members of the cialis tribe around the

1027
00:34:45,589 --> 00:34:42,800
harrison lake area

1028
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:45,599
and they um again paradoxically in

1029
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:47,280
contrast to those claims of skeptics

1030
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:48,879
that article includes descriptions of

1031
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:50,240
creatures that had hair all over their

1032
00:34:54,389 --> 00:34:52,480
body like a bear long arms that held

1033
00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:54,399
that hung down past their knee very

1034
00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:56,480
ape-like descriptions so again it's such

1035
00:34:59,670 --> 00:34:58,400
nonsense to see skeptics try to argue

1036
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:59,680
that again

1037
00:35:03,190 --> 00:35:01,280
it's a convenient argument that fits

1038
00:35:05,589 --> 00:35:03,200
their narrow-minded narrative that is an

1039
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:05,599
incorrect one if we look at the data

1040
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:07,440
but again the 1924 incident the

1041
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:09,359
newspaper reports also described seven

1042
00:35:12,710 --> 00:35:11,280
and a half foot tall you know ape-like

1043
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:12,720
they had hair all over their body so

1044
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:14,160
that was clearly how these things were

1045
00:35:17,349 --> 00:35:15,440
described

1046
00:35:18,790 --> 00:35:17,359
but many years later and i put that out

1047
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:18,800
again because that both preceded

1048
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:20,880
sasquatch and its appearance in print in

1049
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,760
1929 and of course the famous hoax okay

1050
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:25,760
by ray wallace in bluff creek california

1051
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:28,320
in the la in the late 1950s that like

1052
00:35:33,030 --> 00:35:30,720
flying saucers which was a name created

1053
00:35:34,390 --> 00:35:33,040
by the american press bigfoot was the

1054
00:35:36,150 --> 00:35:34,400
name that was given by newspaper

1055
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:36,160
reporters to the creature alleged to

1056
00:35:40,550 --> 00:35:38,400
exist in california in the 1950s but

1057
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:40,560
again going back to that 1924 incident

1058
00:35:45,109 --> 00:35:42,480
many years later fred beck one of the

1059
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:45,119
miners uh wrote a short pamphlet

1060
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,880
describing his experience how i think it

1061
00:35:51,030 --> 00:35:48,240
was called how i fought the mountain

1062
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:51,040
devils at uh mount st helens and his son

1063
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:52,480
helped him write it but at one point in

1064
00:35:56,310 --> 00:35:54,800
that book he describes that we had area

1065
00:35:57,829 --> 00:35:56,320
things happen up there

1066
00:35:59,670 --> 00:35:57,839
you know the prospecting team when we go

1067
00:36:01,750 --> 00:35:59,680
up there into the mountains like we

1068
00:36:03,030 --> 00:36:01,760
would on one occasion we walked out onto

1069
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:03,040
a sandbar and there were these huge

1070
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:05,440
footprints you know but there was only

1071
00:36:07,829 --> 00:36:06,800
we'd see these footprints around is what

1072
00:36:09,190 --> 00:36:07,839
they were saying but they're out there

1073
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:09,200
in the middle of the sandbar there was a

1074
00:36:11,829 --> 00:36:10,720
single footprint

1075
00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:11,839
like these footprints that they were

1076
00:36:14,390 --> 00:36:13,200
used to seeing in the middle of the

1077
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:14,400
sandbar

1078
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,760
and there weren't footprints actually

1079
00:36:18,630 --> 00:36:17,280
leading out to it or there weren't

1080
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:18,640
footprints getting away from it it's

1081
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:20,240
like this thing just kind of steps down

1082
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:21,760
and then it's gone

1083
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:22,720
right so

1084
00:36:26,870 --> 00:36:24,800
so you do see those kinds of reports but

1085
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:26,880
now i'll offer an interesting take on

1086
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:28,079
this

1087
00:36:31,270 --> 00:36:29,599
i've actually i'm not a professional

1088
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:31,280
tracker by any means but because i'm

1089
00:36:35,349 --> 00:36:33,119
interested in search and rescue

1090
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:35,359
and disappearances in our national parks

1091
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:36,720
uh the likes of which have been

1092
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,960
popularized in the books which are very

1093
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:40,480
very entertaining and

1094
00:36:44,870 --> 00:36:42,240
and interesting reading uh written by

1095
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:44,880
david politis missing 4-1-1

1096
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:45,760
yes

1097
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:47,280
oh we're going to talk about that the

1098
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,839
hunters and nor in norcal i love that

1099
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:51,520
let's let's get into that because yeah

1100
00:36:54,870 --> 00:36:52,720
i've looked personally into some of

1101
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:54,880
those cases and i differ a little from

1102
00:36:58,630 --> 00:36:57,280
some of david's claim uh i shouldn't

1103
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:58,640
call him claims i should just call them

1104
00:37:01,670 --> 00:37:00,720
his interpretations he's careful not to

1105
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:01,680
draw

1106
00:37:05,430 --> 00:37:03,680
uh conclusions and that right that

1107
00:37:07,030 --> 00:37:05,440
bothers a lot of people about politis

1108
00:37:08,550 --> 00:37:07,040
but i really respect it i like that he

1109
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:08,560
is trying to be objective he really

1110
00:37:11,030 --> 00:37:10,079
works hard to try and be objective but

1111
00:37:11,910 --> 00:37:11,040
anyway

1112
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:11,920
um

1113
00:37:15,510 --> 00:37:13,760
if if we look at uh you know some of

1114
00:37:17,109 --> 00:37:15,520
what appears in those books you do hear

1115
00:37:19,109 --> 00:37:17,119
people talking about going and before

1116
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:19,119
they went missing they'll describe you

1117
00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:20,480
know the silence that falls over

1118
00:37:23,510 --> 00:37:21,760
everything like you were describing you

1119
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:23,520
know the crickets start stopped chirping

1120
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:25,680
birds stop you know singing things like

1121
00:37:27,430 --> 00:37:26,640
that

1122
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:27,440
um

1123
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:29,119
i took an interest after reading those

1124
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:31,599
books in in man tracking essentially you

1125
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:34,079
can track animals and animals

1126
00:37:37,349 --> 00:37:35,760
generally follow very predictable

1127
00:37:38,870 --> 00:37:37,359
behavior and when i go out in the forest

1128
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:38,880
it's not uncommon to find you know the

1129
00:37:43,030 --> 00:37:40,640
spore of deer

1130
00:37:46,310 --> 00:37:43,040
um you know raccoon possum everything

1131
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:46,320
birds you know wild turkey humans too

1132
00:37:50,230 --> 00:37:48,640
but when you are in a search and rescue

1133
00:37:52,310 --> 00:37:50,240
situation

1134
00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:52,320
uh and i'd recommend a great book uh by

1135
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:54,079
al taylor one of the best you know man

1136
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:55,520
trackers to have written a book that uh

1137
00:38:00,150 --> 00:37:57,520
and he he again just look up al or

1138
00:38:00,950 --> 00:38:00,160
albert taylor man tracking

1139
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:00,960
um

1140
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:03,920
also ty cunningham's forensic sporology

1141
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:05,040
where he

1142
00:38:08,630 --> 00:38:07,200
created a textbook on the science of how

1143
00:38:10,950 --> 00:38:08,640
you attract humans

1144
00:38:12,870 --> 00:38:10,960
uh these books will show you that

1145
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,880
often what people who are tracking an

1146
00:38:15,750 --> 00:38:14,079
individual who maybe is lost in the

1147
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:15,760
forest they're not looking for blatant

1148
00:38:20,310 --> 00:38:17,119
obvious footprints they're looking for

1149
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:20,320
sign sign may be a pebble that's moved

1150
00:38:23,750 --> 00:38:22,320
off place it may be a broken twig or

1151
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,760
branch or a leaf

1152
00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:25,599
it may be where the dew is disturbed in

1153
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:27,040
the morning grass

1154
00:38:30,790 --> 00:38:29,040
and i would say that you know if people

1155
00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:30,800
claim that they have followed sasquatch

1156
00:38:33,349 --> 00:38:31,760
footprints and all of a sudden the

1157
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:33,359
footprints just end i would say well the

1158
00:38:37,030 --> 00:38:34,960
footprints ended but did you keep

1159
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:37,040
looking for sign because half the time

1160
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:38,000
what you're looking for when you're

1161
00:38:42,150 --> 00:38:39,839
following tracks is not going to be an

1162
00:38:43,349 --> 00:38:42,160
obvious footprint and so the skeptical

1163
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:43,359
side of my mind would say if the

1164
00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:44,720
footprints end

1165
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:46,320
you start looking for sign that's what a

1166
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:47,760
trained man tracker does and by the way

1167
00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:49,280
the navajo rangers are far more

1168
00:38:53,270 --> 00:38:51,599
experienced than i am so

1169
00:38:54,630 --> 00:38:53,280
again to their credit they know a bit

1170
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:54,640
more about this and they have much more

1171
00:38:58,550 --> 00:38:56,240
field experience than i do but i would

1172
00:39:00,310 --> 00:38:58,560
still in my experience say

1173
00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:00,320
just because you don't see footprints

1174
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:02,320
does not to me lead me to the conclusion

1175
00:39:06,710 --> 00:39:04,800
that the sasquatch you know disappeared

1176
00:39:08,950 --> 00:39:06,720
flew off into the sky like a bat squatch

1177
00:39:11,589 --> 00:39:08,960
different creature you know

1178
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:11,599
there may be other explanations for that

1179
00:39:15,670 --> 00:39:13,599
fair enough and before i pass it to

1180
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:15,680
kevin i just want to just want to ask

1181
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:18,880
you this um it if it's migrated from

1182
00:39:23,589 --> 00:39:21,280
british columbia down into like

1183
00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:23,599
washington state into vancouver is it

1184
00:39:27,109 --> 00:39:25,520
possible that there's a passport photo

1185
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:27,119
somewhere that exists

1186
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:29,119
you know that he that he has a passport

1187
00:39:33,430 --> 00:39:31,520
and we could just find that in uscis

1188
00:39:34,950 --> 00:39:33,440
somewhere that's a really good question

1189
00:39:36,630 --> 00:39:34,960
you know again you make a very important

1190
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:36,640
point because when i was younger i used

1191
00:39:39,990 --> 00:39:38,720
to think you know big big foot i mean

1192
00:39:41,510 --> 00:39:40,000
bigfoot you're only going to see them up

1193
00:39:43,670 --> 00:39:41,520
there in like british columbia right

1194
00:39:46,069 --> 00:39:43,680
that's the only place that they are um

1195
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:46,079
again humans are believed and this going

1196
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:47,680
back into archaeology and anthropology

1197
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:49,280
not related to sasquatch and i study a

1198
00:39:53,510 --> 00:39:52,160
lot of that human migrations uh into the

1199
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:53,520
into north america are believed to have

1200
00:39:56,550 --> 00:39:54,800
come across the varying land bridge

1201
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:56,560
sometime toward the end of the last ice

1202
00:39:59,750 --> 00:39:58,560
age the dispersal of humans throughout

1203
00:40:01,510 --> 00:39:59,760
the continent would have come through

1204
00:40:03,750 --> 00:40:01,520
that entry point if we have a creature

1205
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:03,760
like sasquatch that essentially occupies

1206
00:40:07,349 --> 00:40:06,000
geographically a fairly contained area

1207
00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:07,359
because it can subsist in that

1208
00:40:10,309 --> 00:40:08,560
environment you know it doesn't have to

1209
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:10,319
move around a lot that would explain why

1210
00:40:13,990 --> 00:40:12,400
the concentration of sightings to this

1211
00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:14,000
day remain up there but i mean you do

1212
00:40:17,349 --> 00:40:15,680
like you said you have them all

1213
00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:17,359
throughout the united states but i guess

1214
00:40:20,710 --> 00:40:18,720
in ancient times we didn't have

1215
00:40:21,670 --> 00:40:20,720
passports so maybe that's a novel

1216
00:40:23,670 --> 00:40:21,680
approach

1217
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:23,680
i'm sure he crossed the border legally

1218
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:25,520
in my opinion he seems like a very

1219
00:40:39,510 --> 00:40:37,030
well hello mr micah hanks nice to meet

1220
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:39,520
you

1221
00:40:42,550 --> 00:40:41,440
so one of the parallels um i noticed

1222
00:40:44,790 --> 00:40:42,560
between

1223
00:40:46,390 --> 00:40:44,800
the uh bigfoot phenomenon and the ufo

1224
00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:46,400
phenomenon is that they

1225
00:40:51,030 --> 00:40:49,280
both they serve to confound science it

1226
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:51,040
seems to confound our culture of

1227
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:53,200
reductionism you know jungians would

1228
00:40:57,990 --> 00:40:56,000
call it the archetype of the wild man

1229
00:40:59,750 --> 00:40:58,000
you know um

1230
00:41:02,790 --> 00:40:59,760
what interests me is that it's in our

1231
00:41:03,829 --> 00:41:02,800
folklore it's cross-cultural

1232
00:41:06,309 --> 00:41:03,839
um

1233
00:41:07,750 --> 00:41:06,319
but i'm wondering i i'm looking at a lot

1234
00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:07,760
of the studies is there any

1235
00:41:11,589 --> 00:41:09,839
psychological studies going on that you

1236
00:41:15,190 --> 00:41:11,599
know of in the psych in the sasquatch

1237
00:41:16,309 --> 00:41:15,200
field like the ufo phenomena

1238
00:41:18,950 --> 00:41:16,319
uh

1239
00:41:20,630 --> 00:41:18,960
yeah i i do know of one more like a

1240
00:41:22,230 --> 00:41:20,640
sociological study that's currently

1241
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:22,240
underway and i participated in that

1242
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:23,440
study um

1243
00:41:27,829 --> 00:41:26,000
the study as i understand it uh is uh

1244
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:27,839
the results of course are not out yet

1245
00:41:31,510 --> 00:41:30,079
but a pair of researchers in the uk have

1246
00:41:33,829 --> 00:41:31,520
been interviewing

1247
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:33,839
people who are sasquatch researchers and

1248
00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:35,440
uh and they've been looking at a number

1249
00:41:39,270 --> 00:41:37,520
of different socio-cultural

1250
00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:39,280
components which does have some to do

1251
00:41:42,470 --> 00:41:40,960
with psychology obviously social

1252
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:42,480
sciences one must take into

1253
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:44,240
consideration you know people's mindset

1254
00:41:47,430 --> 00:41:46,160
and the things that form you know ideas

1255
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:47,440
and beliefs

1256
00:41:51,190 --> 00:41:48,960
apart from that

1257
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:51,200
i'm not sure of any i will say this

1258
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:53,280
though uh you know i think

1259
00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:54,480
it's interesting because in different

1260
00:41:59,430 --> 00:41:57,200
areas of of uh academia and scholarship

1261
00:42:02,230 --> 00:41:59,440
i mean if there's a necessary or whether

1262
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:02,240
i should say a necessity for study of

1263
00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:04,160
subjects like this like we could look at

1264
00:42:07,910 --> 00:42:05,920
ufos and we could look at uh you know

1265
00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:07,920
why certain

1266
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:09,680
ufo shapes

1267
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,640
mirror

1268
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:12,800
a cultural idea or something like that

1269
00:42:15,589 --> 00:42:13,680
right

1270
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:15,599
and and again and if i'm a social

1271
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:17,280
scientist it's going to be natural for

1272
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:19,119
me to do that kind of study if i'm a

1273
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:20,800
psychologist it's going to be especially

1274
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:22,240
a jungian psychologist and you make a

1275
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:24,160
really great point yes you know the

1276
00:42:28,309 --> 00:42:26,319
savage or the you know the wild man you

1277
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:28,319
know this is an archetypal motif that we

1278
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:30,960
see throughout history it emerges in in

1279
00:42:34,309 --> 00:42:32,800
historic traditions

1280
00:42:36,630 --> 00:42:34,319
um someone like me who has gone all the

1281
00:42:38,069 --> 00:42:36,640
way back to 200 bc and managed to find

1282
00:42:41,510 --> 00:42:38,079
actually much earlier than that tell you

1283
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:41,520
the truth if we take into account um

1284
00:42:45,750 --> 00:42:42,880
what what i guess we could call epic

1285
00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:45,760
portrayals of wild men or beastly

1286
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:48,560
humanoids like enkidu in the epic of

1287
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:50,640
gilgamesh we can maybe extend that to

1288
00:42:54,790 --> 00:42:52,480
grendel and beowulf and some of these

1289
00:42:56,309 --> 00:42:54,800
other popular epics you know from from

1290
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:56,319
days past

1291
00:43:00,150 --> 00:42:57,760
yeah sure these are these are

1292
00:43:02,390 --> 00:43:00,160
traditional characters stock characters

1293
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:02,400
and sasquatch has a place in all of that

1294
00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:03,359
but

1295
00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:04,880
as a researcher who

1296
00:43:08,069 --> 00:43:06,240
again there is no

1297
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:08,079
degree you can't go to a university and

1298
00:43:13,829 --> 00:43:10,720
get a degree in sasquatchery or even in

1299
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:13,839
ufology or uap studies um the best we

1300
00:43:17,270 --> 00:43:15,359
can do is we can have a and maybe there

1301
00:43:19,190 --> 00:43:17,280
will be degrees in that in those fields

1302
00:43:20,470 --> 00:43:19,200
and disciplines at one point but right

1303
00:43:21,829 --> 00:43:20,480
now the best you could do is maybe get a

1304
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:21,839
degree in anthropology physical

1305
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:24,000
anthropology paleo anthropology if you

1306
00:43:27,270 --> 00:43:25,760
want to study sasquatch or you can get a

1307
00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:27,280
degree maybe in

1308
00:43:30,870 --> 00:43:28,960
you know astronomy

1309
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,880
or physics if you want to study ufos and

1310
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:32,560
those are areas that are applicable to

1311
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:34,960
the study of these but you know as a

1312
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:37,280
researcher who an layman who doesn't

1313
00:43:41,430 --> 00:43:38,720
have any of those degrees and someone

1314
00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:41,440
who is merely looking at this phenomena

1315
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:43,520
you know i find it most useful even

1316
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:44,560
though i'm interested in that

1317
00:43:47,589 --> 00:43:46,079
psychological side of things i find it

1318
00:43:49,670 --> 00:43:47,599
most useful to try and say you know what

1319
00:43:51,190 --> 00:43:49,680
data do we have that either supports the

1320
00:43:53,349 --> 00:43:51,200
existence of these creatures or these

1321
00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:53,359
phenomena like ua uap

1322
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:55,680
or which refutes that idea and

1323
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:57,040
in my view

1324
00:43:59,750 --> 00:43:58,319
um

1325
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,760
and this comes back to the psychology

1326
00:44:03,510 --> 00:44:02,160
thing and i'll end right here if if this

1327
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:03,520
if the solution to either of these

1328
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:06,319
problems uap or sasquatch

1329
00:44:11,030 --> 00:44:08,960
is completely that people just say silly

1330
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:11,040
crap and that they just make up silly

1331
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:12,000
stuff

1332
00:44:15,109 --> 00:44:13,520
and that that's what this is all about

1333
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:15,119
you know um

1334
00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:17,440
we have a much more fascinating

1335
00:44:21,589 --> 00:44:19,680
phenomena on our hands

1336
00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:21,599
the fact that people

1337
00:44:24,790 --> 00:44:22,880
lie and

1338
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:24,800
they are so mistaken in things that they

1339
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:26,880
observe that to me would be a far more

1340
00:44:31,190 --> 00:44:29,119
complex and difficult phenomenon to

1341
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:31,200
understand than what the alternative

1342
00:44:35,109 --> 00:44:32,880
seems to entail that people do see

1343
00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:35,119
things they can't explain and we have to

1344
00:44:39,190 --> 00:44:37,760
try and account for those

1345
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:39,200
absolutely

1346
00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:41,680
yeah i mean and and you know sasquatch's

1347
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,440
attempted therapy may have been his uh

1348
00:44:49,349 --> 00:44:47,359
his inter or her interaction with mr

1349
00:44:50,790 --> 00:44:49,359
moorhead and mr berry and they just

1350
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:50,800
didn't know that they were acting in

1351
00:44:55,510 --> 00:44:52,960
that capacity but it's possible

1352
00:44:57,510 --> 00:44:55,520
steph you're up buddy

1353
00:44:59,670 --> 00:44:57,520
micah it's so good to see you thank you

1354
00:45:01,750 --> 00:44:59,680
for your take on everything i'm just i'm

1355
00:45:04,230 --> 00:45:01,760
having a blast listening to you guys so

1356
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:04,240
i do have a question though i i am a bit

1357
00:45:07,510 --> 00:45:06,720
curious about the sasquatch phenomenon

1358
00:45:09,510 --> 00:45:07,520
and

1359
00:45:11,190 --> 00:45:09,520
being an experiencer myself i have

1360
00:45:14,150 --> 00:45:11,200
viewed a uap

1361
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:14,160
i'm still a skeptic i'm still a realist

1362
00:45:19,910 --> 00:45:16,880
i still question everything but you know

1363
00:45:22,309 --> 00:45:19,920
i i i have physically seen a uap

1364
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:22,319
but um as far as the sasquatch

1365
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:24,880
i know not not as of yet so as soon as i

1366
00:45:28,069 --> 00:45:26,720
see one then then i'll have a different

1367
00:45:30,829 --> 00:45:28,079
take on it so

1368
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:30,839
being a realist i want to know

1369
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:32,720
where

1370
00:45:37,270 --> 00:45:35,280
sorry i need to construct my question a

1371
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:37,280
bit better here so you mentioned your

1372
00:45:42,630 --> 00:45:39,280
interest in anthropology

1373
00:45:45,829 --> 00:45:42,640
right and i'm trying to make this all

1374
00:45:49,109 --> 00:45:45,839
uh make sense right so on catalina there

1375
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:49,119
have been findings of giants so

1376
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:52,079
would that somehow be interconnected to

1377
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:54,480
the sasquatch phenomenon that to me

1378
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:56,640
would make sense where those two items

1379
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:00,000
would correlate so maybe it is not a

1380
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:02,400
phenomenon maybe it is some

1381
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:03,440
real

1382
00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:06,720
you know physical being or i also came

1383
00:46:09,510 --> 00:46:08,720
up with the idea of it being a phantom

1384
00:46:12,710 --> 00:46:09,520
so

1385
00:46:15,829 --> 00:46:12,720
what are your thoughts on the giants

1386
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:15,839
correlating with the bigfoot

1387
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,079
well that's a good question um in in

1388
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:20,640
modern anthropology there are certain

1389
00:46:25,349 --> 00:46:23,040
topics that are uh you know you will be

1390
00:46:27,510 --> 00:46:25,359
quickly viewed as persona non grata if

1391
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:27,520
you if you entertain these ideas a

1392
00:46:30,470 --> 00:46:28,960
couple of examples are hyper

1393
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:30,480
diffusionism

1394
00:46:33,510 --> 00:46:31,920
i.e the idea that there might have been

1395
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:33,520
a mother culture you know somewhere

1396
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:34,880
around egypt or any other place in the

1397
00:46:39,270 --> 00:46:37,280
world maybe atlantis some would say

1398
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:39,280
that people dispersed from that and

1399
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,560
throughout the world and that explains

1400
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:42,000
why there are pyramids in egypt and

1401
00:46:46,230 --> 00:46:44,400
similar structures in mesoamerica you

1402
00:46:48,950 --> 00:46:46,240
know modern anthropology has no time for

1403
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:48,960
that now um another one of those ideas

1404
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:50,079
and i'll just say by the way that you

1405
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:50,960
know even

1406
00:46:54,790 --> 00:46:53,040
i don't ascribe to hybrid effusionism

1407
00:46:57,750 --> 00:46:54,800
but i also

1408
00:46:59,589 --> 00:46:57,760
don't place limits on the ingenuity of

1409
00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,599
ancient peoples because people who

1410
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:02,160
existed 10 000

1411
00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:04,240
20 000 years ago i mean they were homo

1412
00:47:08,470 --> 00:47:06,480
sapiens sapiens just like us

1413
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:08,480
and they had all the same capabilities

1414
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:09,760
and they had the same degree of

1415
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:11,760
intelligence and ingenuity that we have

1416
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:13,760
and yet there has long in anthropology

1417
00:47:18,069 --> 00:47:15,760
been this i should say more specifically

1418
00:47:19,270 --> 00:47:18,079
in archaeology and in the united states

1419
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:19,280
archaeology is considered a

1420
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:21,520
sub-discipline of anthropology

1421
00:47:25,990 --> 00:47:24,480
along with um linguistics and and and

1422
00:47:27,829 --> 00:47:26,000
you know with physical and cultural

1423
00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:27,839
anthropology in the uk and other parts

1424
00:47:31,589 --> 00:47:29,119
of the world sometimes it's almost

1425
00:47:34,710 --> 00:47:31,599
viewed more archaeology can fall almost

1426
00:47:37,670 --> 00:47:34,720
closer to like art um in the sense of

1427
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:37,680
interpretive analysis of uh you know

1428
00:47:43,349 --> 00:47:40,319
symbols and language uh ie found it uh

1429
00:47:44,710 --> 00:47:43,359
in in egypt or some place like that um

1430
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:44,720
and a lot of that has to do with where

1431
00:47:49,109 --> 00:47:46,640
archaeology grew out of you know the the

1432
00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:49,119
antiquarians of the 19th century who

1433
00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:50,640
began as collectors and then they start

1434
00:47:53,349 --> 00:47:51,760
you know kind of taking what they

1435
00:47:55,829 --> 00:47:53,359
collect and trying to categorize and

1436
00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:55,839
classify archaeology is a fairly young

1437
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:57,760
science that grew out of that i see a

1438
00:48:02,069 --> 00:48:00,240
lot of science that's really making

1439
00:48:03,910 --> 00:48:02,079
archaeology so innovative especially in

1440
00:48:05,430 --> 00:48:03,920
north american archaeology which i have

1441
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:05,440
a lot of experience in

1442
00:48:07,910 --> 00:48:06,720
but the more i learned about it the more

1443
00:48:09,510 --> 00:48:07,920
i'm like well

1444
00:48:11,349 --> 00:48:09,520
people a long time ago were brilliant

1445
00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:11,359
and yeah they knew how to build boats

1446
00:48:14,549 --> 00:48:12,960
and yet for a long time even though

1447
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:14,559
people in archaeology are warming up to

1448
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,240
that idea now for the longest time if

1449
00:48:19,589 --> 00:48:18,079
you were to suppose that you know

1450
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:19,599
again homo erectus could have built a

1451
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:21,440
raft and sailed around you know one of

1452
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:24,480
our archaic human ancestors people would

1453
00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:26,480
laugh they would said nope impossible

1454
00:48:29,589 --> 00:48:27,760
but i'm going to tell you that people

1455
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:29,599
were able to get around now to that

1456
00:48:32,150 --> 00:48:30,640
point

1457
00:48:34,150 --> 00:48:32,160
when we look up and down the california

1458
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:34,160
coast there are some very interesting

1459
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:36,240
archaeological sites that are suggestive

1460
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,839
of things about uh dispersal of

1461
00:48:42,710 --> 00:48:41,839
humans both homo sapiens sapiens and

1462
00:48:44,790 --> 00:48:42,720
other

1463
00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:44,800
varieties perhaps and this actually does

1464
00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:46,000
sort of get into the whole thing with

1465
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:48,000
sasquatch

1466
00:48:51,670 --> 00:48:49,680
they are suggestive of something more

1467
00:48:54,309 --> 00:48:51,680
than what current anthropological

1468
00:48:55,910 --> 00:48:54,319
thinking would allow and when we talked

1469
00:48:58,150 --> 00:48:55,920
about earlier

1470
00:48:59,750 --> 00:48:58,160
paradigms in science right

1471
00:49:01,589 --> 00:48:59,760
and when you break a paradigm and then

1472
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:01,599
you have this new knowledge if we go

1473
00:49:05,990 --> 00:49:04,000
back to the early nineteen hundreds

1474
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:06,000
uh alaias herd lichka who was the head

1475
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:07,680
anthropologist at the national museum

1476
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,440
which became the smithsonian hedlichka

1477
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:14,160
was trying to drive home the idea that

1478
00:49:18,150 --> 00:49:16,000
humans didn't get here until about maybe

1479
00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:18,160
3 000 years ago there was no

1480
00:49:21,829 --> 00:49:19,760
evidence of humans in north america in

1481
00:49:24,230 --> 00:49:21,839
the ice age

1482
00:49:27,030 --> 00:49:24,240
and anything that fell outside of that

1483
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:27,040
hypothesis he wanted to throw that out

1484
00:49:32,150 --> 00:49:29,760
and then at folsom new mexico we found

1485
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:32,160
unambiguous evidence of lithic points

1486
00:49:36,309 --> 00:49:34,319
projectile points beautiful incred

1487
00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:36,319
incredibly sophisticated projectile

1488
00:49:40,950 --> 00:49:39,119
points in situ alongside extinct

1489
00:49:45,510 --> 00:49:40,960
megafauna that are known to have existed

1490
00:49:47,109 --> 00:49:45,520
during the ice age by 17. yeah and so so

1491
00:49:48,630 --> 00:49:47,119
this was what led to the establishment

1492
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:48,640
of the folsom culture then a similar

1493
00:49:51,910 --> 00:49:50,160
discovery was made just a few years ago

1494
00:49:53,270 --> 00:49:51,920
at uh clovis new mexico which pushed

1495
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:53,280
that boundary back even further to

1496
00:49:57,510 --> 00:49:56,000
around 12 to 13 000 years ago best we

1497
00:49:58,870 --> 00:49:57,520
know herrera lichko went to his grave

1498
00:50:00,549 --> 00:49:58,880
and never accepted that there were

1499
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:00,559
people here that early

1500
00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:02,400
well again we could look at all these

1501
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:03,280
different

1502
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:04,720
paradigms that have broken and the

1503
00:50:07,270 --> 00:50:06,079
people who held out and still wouldn't

1504
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:07,280
believe it there are still people today

1505
00:50:11,109 --> 00:50:09,200
who try to argue that there's really not

1506
00:50:12,710 --> 00:50:11,119
good evidence of pre-clovis or earlier

1507
00:50:14,309 --> 00:50:12,720
than clovis and that despite

1508
00:50:16,549 --> 00:50:14,319
archaeological evidence

1509
00:50:18,150 --> 00:50:16,559
at sites like galton texas that pushes

1510
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:18,160
back you know the time scale to around

1511
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:20,720
20 000 years ago or more for human entry

1512
00:50:24,549 --> 00:50:22,240
but now to the point that you asked

1513
00:50:26,630 --> 00:50:24,559
about giants and things like this

1514
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:26,640
naturally um looking back at the old

1515
00:50:30,549 --> 00:50:28,240
bureau of ethnology reports in the

1516
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:30,559
smithsonian's records uh i'm aware of

1517
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:32,079
and have have looked at a lot of those

1518
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:34,559
accounts of large human skeletal remains

1519
00:50:37,349 --> 00:50:36,319
that have been recovered and especially

1520
00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:37,359
when i was younger i was kind of

1521
00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:39,200
interested in them something i was not

1522
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:42,559
aware of was how contentious that topic

1523
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:44,960
is and that's why i give you this long

1524
00:50:49,109 --> 00:50:47,040
you know preamble here about uh

1525
00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:49,119
paradigms and also about

1526
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:50,400
um

1527
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:53,040
about the resistance to ideas certain

1528
00:50:56,470 --> 00:50:55,040
ideas in anthropology because giants are

1529
00:50:58,710 --> 00:50:56,480
one of them uh

1530
00:51:00,309 --> 00:50:58,720
what i didn't know was that there are a

1531
00:51:01,990 --> 00:51:00,319
lot of i guess what you'd call fringe

1532
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:02,000
theorists and i'm not using that as a

1533
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:03,520
pejorative but they would say there's a

1534
00:51:08,309 --> 00:51:06,000
lost race of giants that inhabited the

1535
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:08,319
entire americas and you know and these

1536
00:51:11,829 --> 00:51:09,760
are the same thing as the nephilim that

1537
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:11,839
we read about in the bible okay well

1538
00:51:14,790 --> 00:51:13,119
that's fine people can believe what they

1539
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:14,800
want to i wasn't aware that that was a

1540
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,400
contentious issue in archaeology

1541
00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:18,400
meanwhile i'm looking at actual reports

1542
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:20,800
documentation that describes large human

1543
00:51:24,309 --> 00:51:22,079
remains and i'm like okay that's

1544
00:51:26,150 --> 00:51:24,319
interesting what might this represent

1545
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:26,160
uh for a short time because i took

1546
00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:27,760
interest in those people began calling

1547
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:30,000
me a giantologist and

1548
00:51:32,790 --> 00:51:31,599
things like that

1549
00:51:34,710 --> 00:51:32,800
i don't care

1550
00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:34,720
these look like large human remains to

1551
00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:35,760
me

1552
00:51:39,430 --> 00:51:37,599
what can we discern about them and and

1553
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:39,440
privately this is fascinating i mean

1554
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:40,880
there were people

1555
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:42,880
scholars people in the aerospace

1556
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:44,000
industry

1557
00:51:47,829 --> 00:51:46,000
people you'd be very surprised who

1558
00:51:49,270 --> 00:51:47,839
shared that interest and who we would

1559
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:49,280
look into this and we would communicate

1560
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:50,400
about it

1561
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:53,359
um but the known large human remains on

1562
00:51:58,390 --> 00:51:56,400
record uh all seem to be in you know

1563
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:58,400
unequivocally human but they possess

1564
00:52:01,030 --> 00:51:59,440
different kinds of interesting

1565
00:52:02,109 --> 00:52:01,040
characteristics some

1566
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:02,119
uh possess

1567
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,440
macrocephalic features a large skull

1568
00:52:09,430 --> 00:52:07,440
but disproportionately large to the rest

1569
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,440
of the body some possess what are

1570
00:52:14,790 --> 00:52:11,599
obviously acromegalic features again a

1571
00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:14,800
pronounced jaw spacing between the teeth

1572
00:52:17,109 --> 00:52:15,839
other characteristics that are

1573
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:17,119
indicative of a

1574
00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:18,640
growth hormone disorder that would have

1575
00:52:21,910 --> 00:52:20,400
led to gigantism

1576
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:21,920
the catalina story is interesting

1577
00:52:27,109 --> 00:52:24,880
because we have uh several instances of

1578
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:27,119
human remains that were all as i

1579
00:52:32,150 --> 00:52:29,839
understand it recovered in a single

1580
00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:32,160
burial complex that were some of them

1581
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:33,760
taller than seven feet and i've actually

1582
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:35,040
seen some photographs from those

1583
00:52:38,630 --> 00:52:37,200
excavations but then again you know if

1584
00:52:40,150 --> 00:52:38,640
we go watch a basketball game today

1585
00:52:42,230 --> 00:52:40,160
there are a lot of basketball players

1586
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:42,240
who are taller than seven feet and so

1587
00:52:44,790 --> 00:52:43,920
it's fascinating because

1588
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:44,800
sure

1589
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:46,640
at that time in history especially when

1590
00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:48,240
europeans who arrived here and they were

1591
00:52:52,549 --> 00:52:50,800
very malnourished mostly meet

1592
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:52,559
they arrive for instance on the eastern

1593
00:52:56,230 --> 00:52:54,079
coast of the united states and they meet

1594
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:56,240
an indigenous group like the seminole

1595
00:53:01,349 --> 00:52:59,520
who are largely subsisting on

1596
00:53:03,030 --> 00:53:01,359
um shellfish and things out there on the

1597
00:53:04,069 --> 00:53:03,040
coastal regions but they're also you

1598
00:53:06,069 --> 00:53:04,079
know having

1599
00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:06,079
a more diverse diet they meet the

1600
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:07,440
seminal and they're like wow you know

1601
00:53:11,270 --> 00:53:09,200
six seven feet tall that's not uncommon

1602
00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:11,280
among these people they're giants

1603
00:53:14,549 --> 00:53:13,040
you know

1604
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:14,559
there's a really good case to be made

1605
00:53:19,109 --> 00:53:16,800
that it was a perception problem not an

1606
00:53:20,470 --> 00:53:19,119
actual instance of real giants but steph

1607
00:53:22,549 --> 00:53:20,480
back to your point is there's some sort

1608
00:53:24,069 --> 00:53:22,559
of connection with sasquatch here

1609
00:53:27,349 --> 00:53:24,079
another thing i've looked into that's

1610
00:53:29,829 --> 00:53:27,359
interesting to me is anomalous uh

1611
00:53:31,270 --> 00:53:29,839
remains that are found in parts of north

1612
00:53:33,910 --> 00:53:31,280
america there's not a lot of this but

1613
00:53:36,710 --> 00:53:33,920
there are definitely some cases where

1614
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:36,720
um during archaeological excavations and

1615
00:53:40,829 --> 00:53:39,200
also surface fines

1616
00:53:44,950 --> 00:53:40,839
there have been

1617
00:53:48,950 --> 00:53:44,960
anomalous fossil or uh or non-fossilized

1618
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:48,960
remains of of human uh presumably types

1619
00:53:52,870 --> 00:53:51,440
that that are not very easily recognized

1620
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:52,880
and you can see where this is kind of

1621
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:54,240
going it leads to one or two

1622
00:53:59,030 --> 00:53:57,280
possibilities one were there other kinds

1623
00:54:00,630 --> 00:53:59,040
of hominins that might have made their

1624
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:00,640
way into north america other than just

1625
00:54:04,549 --> 00:54:03,119
humans and two is it possible and this

1626
00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:04,559
is where it sounds really outlandish to

1627
00:54:08,710 --> 00:54:05,680
people but this is where i play

1628
00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,720
sasquatch if if it exists is there

1629
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:10,720
another kind of a homonym or hominoid

1630
00:54:13,190 --> 00:54:12,000
and this is why we use the term relic

1631
00:54:15,430 --> 00:54:13,200
tominoid

1632
00:54:16,230 --> 00:54:15,440
that could still exist in north america

1633
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:16,240
now

1634
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:17,599
the proponents of the existence of

1635
00:54:20,870 --> 00:54:19,040
sasquatch say

1636
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:20,880
interestingly we already know in the in

1637
00:54:24,390 --> 00:54:22,960
the fossil record of a creature that

1638
00:54:26,230 --> 00:54:24,400
would be a good qualifier for this and

1639
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:26,240
it's known as gigantic pethecus black

1640
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:27,040
eye

1641
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:29,280
which was first discovered uh as a

1642
00:54:34,309 --> 00:54:31,200
result of fossil teeth that were found

1643
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:34,319
in the chinese apothecaries shot by uh

1644
00:54:38,710 --> 00:54:36,079
von konigsvald i think was the name of

1645
00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:38,720
the researcher back in like 1920s or 30s

1646
00:54:42,950 --> 00:54:40,880
and they were being sold as dragon teeth

1647
00:54:44,309 --> 00:54:42,960
but he's looking at this huge flat tooth

1648
00:54:45,910 --> 00:54:44,319
which is obviously used for grinding

1649
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:45,920
plant matter and he's like that's not a

1650
00:54:53,630 --> 00:54:46,960
dragon

1651
00:54:55,910 --> 00:54:53,640
giant ape you know and many would say

1652
00:54:58,470 --> 00:54:55,920
gigantopithecus if it if it actually

1653
00:55:00,549 --> 00:54:58,480
migrated like other varieties not only

1654
00:55:02,470 --> 00:55:00,559
humans but also other different kinds of

1655
00:55:03,990 --> 00:55:02,480
uh megafauna animals if they had

1656
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:04,000
traversed that bearing land bridge and

1657
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:06,640
populated north america is it possible

1658
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:08,960
that in plasticine north america we had

1659
00:55:14,309 --> 00:55:12,400
a mega faunal ape along with now let's

1660
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:14,319
just think about how that you know

1661
00:55:18,870 --> 00:55:16,480
plasticine america looked if we went

1662
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:18,880
back 15 000 years we wouldn't recognize

1663
00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:20,640
it we wouldn't recognize the damn place

1664
00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:21,760
none of us would know where we were i

1665
00:55:26,390 --> 00:55:24,000
mean you'd have dire wolves sabertooth

1666
00:55:28,390 --> 00:55:26,400
cats american camels american horses you

1667
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:28,400
would have mastodons you would have

1668
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:30,880
i mean any number of other giant sloths

1669
00:55:34,630 --> 00:55:31,680
i mean

1670
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:34,640
incredibly large monstrous creatures

1671
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:36,240
that look more like something out of

1672
00:55:40,069 --> 00:55:37,920
jurassic park than anything that we know

1673
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:40,079
to exist anywhere on earth today

1674
00:55:43,829 --> 00:55:41,440
now the problem is we don't have fossil

1675
00:55:46,150 --> 00:55:43,839
remains of sasquatch in north america

1676
00:55:47,910 --> 00:55:46,160
but we do have a creature in parts of

1677
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:47,920
asia that's a good qualifier and so some

1678
00:55:50,630 --> 00:55:48,960
have said

1679
00:55:52,309 --> 00:55:50,640
is it necessarily impossible that

1680
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:52,319
something like that might have come over

1681
00:55:55,430 --> 00:55:53,839
but one last point that i'll come back

1682
00:55:57,349 --> 00:55:55,440
over to which is more in line with your

1683
00:55:59,270 --> 00:55:57,359
original question this stuff the

1684
00:56:01,349 --> 00:55:59,280
earliest some of the earliest human

1685
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:01,359
remains that i know of anywhere in north

1686
00:56:05,349 --> 00:56:03,359
america were also found in the in the

1687
00:56:07,990 --> 00:56:05,359
island complex there near catalina and

1688
00:56:09,430 --> 00:56:08,000
this is known as arlington springs man

1689
00:56:11,349 --> 00:56:09,440
this would have qualified for being a

1690
00:56:13,349 --> 00:56:11,359
clovis era

1691
00:56:15,990 --> 00:56:13,359
instance of human remains

1692
00:56:18,069 --> 00:56:16,000
which even many of my colleagues in

1693
00:56:19,589 --> 00:56:18,079
archaeology either didn't know about or

1694
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:19,599
don't know about until i bring it up to

1695
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:20,480
them

1696
00:56:24,069 --> 00:56:21,839
interesting to me that we have some of

1697
00:56:25,670 --> 00:56:24,079
the earliest instances of human remains

1698
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:25,680
in north america right there in that

1699
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:27,839
same area and there are also disputed

1700
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,440
archaeological discoveries that include

1701
00:56:32,950 --> 00:56:31,359
what looks like a brow ridge that i mean

1702
00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:32,960
very well likely may have belonged to

1703
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:34,559
homo erectus that was found along the

1704
00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:36,640
shore of a mexican lake i believe in the

1705
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:38,160
70s or 80s

1706
00:56:42,309 --> 00:56:39,920
there are similar fossil discoveries

1707
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:42,319
like that that caused me to wonder

1708
00:56:44,549 --> 00:56:43,680
and i could go on all day about this but

1709
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:44,559
you know

1710
00:56:47,190 --> 00:56:46,319
do do we really have a completely clear

1711
00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:47,200
picture

1712
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:48,079
of the

1713
00:56:57,270 --> 00:56:54,079
variety of different hominins that might

1714
00:56:58,950 --> 00:56:57,280
have gotten here this is a crazy idea

1715
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:58,960
in modern archaeology and people will

1716
00:57:02,309 --> 00:57:00,960
laugh at you for that and then in the

1717
00:57:04,950 --> 00:57:02,319
same breath they'll say but tell me

1718
00:57:07,270 --> 00:57:04,960
about the ufos right

1719
00:57:07,990 --> 00:57:07,280
very strange very strange

1720
00:57:10,390 --> 00:57:08,000
one

1721
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:10,400
my brain just melted that's awesome

1722
00:57:14,549 --> 00:57:12,160
thanks man

1723
00:57:16,470 --> 00:57:14,559
i hope i answered the questions

1724
00:57:18,390 --> 00:57:16,480
you did mike

1725
00:57:20,630 --> 00:57:18,400
i'd like to laud not only your

1726
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:20,640
encyclopedic knowledge of everything you

1727
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:22,880
just recalled ad hoc that just is

1728
00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:25,119
incredible second of all i want to say

1729
00:57:29,270 --> 00:57:27,119
that you were also

1730
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:29,280
able to extract the one redeeming

1731
00:57:34,870 --> 00:57:32,480
quality of the last three years of my

1732
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:34,880
air force career in close new mexico

1733
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:37,680
which was the black water drop site

1734
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:39,440
yeah with the

1735
00:57:44,390 --> 00:57:42,319
the the neolithic uh parent uh the uh

1736
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:44,400
the arrowheads and stuff so thank you

1737
00:57:48,309 --> 00:57:46,640
that that was uh the one thing that uh

1738
00:57:50,309 --> 00:57:48,319
right before i retired

1739
00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:50,319
that we could say was awesome about

1740
00:57:55,510 --> 00:57:53,359
clovis the one thing so anyway uh let me

1741
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:55,520
pass it over to money nathan and let me

1742
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:58,000
just as we get a time check here do we

1743
00:58:02,069 --> 00:57:59,839
have 30 more minutes with you to hit

1744
00:58:03,349 --> 00:58:02,079
kind of a quick fire around or what kind

1745
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:03,359
of time you have

1746
00:58:07,990 --> 00:58:05,680
for you guys you definitely do my next

1747
00:58:10,390 --> 00:58:08,000
appointment isn't until uh yeah we got

1748
00:58:12,390 --> 00:58:10,400
time we love you nathan just add to that

1749
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:12,400
check that you're gonna send him uh and

1750
00:58:16,549 --> 00:58:14,640
also we're going to as a result of this

1751
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:16,559
we're gonna put me up on the big screen

1752
00:58:19,829 --> 00:58:18,160
real quick nathan yeah okay hold on one

1753
00:58:21,670 --> 00:58:19,839
second all right

1754
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:21,680
here we go we're going to make sure that

1755
00:58:26,789 --> 00:58:24,160
you micah have your own can of dj's

1756
00:58:30,789 --> 00:58:26,799
bespoke skin care you'll recognize that

1757
00:58:35,109 --> 00:58:32,950
but that is my organic skin care nathan

1758
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:35,119
we'll have one of those to give to you

1759
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:37,119
okay it looks like nathan doing his very

1760
00:58:44,630 --> 00:58:42,549
he gets it

1761
00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:44,640
it took me like a month to get him to

1762
00:58:47,750 --> 00:58:46,720
agree to be the the model for my new

1763
00:58:48,710 --> 00:58:47,760
skincare

1764
00:58:51,270 --> 00:58:48,720
thank you

1765
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:51,280
um anyway we're still working on some of

1766
00:58:55,589 --> 00:58:53,920
the licensing agreements but uh yeah

1767
00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:55,599
no i'm in trouble i'm gonna end up

1768
00:58:59,910 --> 00:58:57,760
writing a check yeah yeah but it's all

1769
00:59:01,829 --> 00:58:59,920
organic you'll love it all right let me

1770
00:59:04,230 --> 00:59:01,839
pass you over to money nathan please and

1771
00:59:06,309 --> 00:59:04,240
uh we'll try to make uh rapid-fire the

1772
00:59:08,150 --> 00:59:06,319
questions that we have uh and make sure

1773
00:59:09,670 --> 00:59:08,160
we can get get everything out in 30

1774
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:09,680
minutes go ahead

1775
00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:11,520
mike i posed this question to your

1776
00:59:15,030 --> 00:59:12,960
colleague chrissy newton when we had her

1777
00:59:17,349 --> 00:59:15,040
on the show and and uh i really like

1778
00:59:20,549 --> 00:59:17,359
your perspective on this as well what

1779
00:59:23,270 --> 00:59:20,559
what are the kinds of uh

1780
00:59:25,750 --> 00:59:23,280
sort of mouthpieces figureheads

1781
00:59:29,109 --> 00:59:25,760
uh mediators of information in our

1782
00:59:31,270 --> 00:59:29,119
society who need to be able to

1783
00:59:32,789 --> 00:59:31,280
either accept or articulate or or

1784
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:32,799
expound upon

1785
00:59:36,630 --> 00:59:35,040
these kinds of topics in order for the

1786
00:59:37,750 --> 00:59:36,640
the sort of tipping point of public

1787
00:59:39,829 --> 00:59:37,760
opinion

1788
00:59:41,430 --> 00:59:39,839
to to where it goes just as you said to

1789
00:59:43,270 --> 00:59:41,440
from an unacceptable topic of

1790
00:59:45,190 --> 00:59:43,280
conversation to an acceptable

1791
00:59:46,950 --> 00:59:45,200
conversation in your mind and

1792
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:46,960
particularly in the media you know what

1793
00:59:50,309 --> 00:59:48,559
what are these people who who are these

1794
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:50,319
organizations

1795
00:59:55,910 --> 00:59:51,920
what permission do we need in other

1796
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:55,920
words to uh to have these conversations

1797
00:59:59,430 --> 00:59:57,119
uh to make sure i understand the

1798
01:00:01,270 --> 00:59:59,440
question correctly are you saying what

1799
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:01,280
what kinds of people in like for

1800
01:00:05,430 --> 01:00:04,319
instance government sciences whatever

1801
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:05,440
should be

1802
01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:07,440
accepting of these topics to help the

1803
01:00:11,349 --> 01:00:09,920
broader public be accepting is that kind

1804
01:00:13,270 --> 01:00:11,359
of what you're asking i think you're on

1805
01:00:16,549 --> 01:00:13,280
to that right so the the issue here is

1806
01:00:17,349 --> 01:00:16,559
that in our society right we have

1807
01:00:18,789 --> 01:00:17,359
uh

1808
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:18,799
we all have different perspectives

1809
01:00:23,030 --> 01:00:20,640
different ideas but some of them are

1810
01:00:25,510 --> 01:00:23,040
fringe as you pointed out and we kind of

1811
01:00:28,470 --> 01:00:25,520
have to look to the sort of seats of

1812
01:00:30,630 --> 01:00:28,480
authority uh for permission to where

1813
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:30,640
that's no longer something that's left

1814
01:00:35,190 --> 01:00:32,720
at but an acceptable topic of

1815
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:35,200
conversation so how close in your mind

1816
01:00:39,829 --> 01:00:38,000
are we to a place where the the right

1817
01:00:43,270 --> 01:00:39,839
people the right organizations the right

1818
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:43,280
bodies have legitimized these topics so

1819
01:00:46,390 --> 01:00:45,359
that we can have this conversation more

1820
01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:46,400
broadly

1821
01:00:52,470 --> 01:00:49,920
yeah you know it requires a

1822
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:52,480
multi-faceted approach first of all and

1823
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,240
and i have long realized that it

1824
01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,119
wouldn't be enough just to have

1825
01:01:01,510 --> 01:00:59,520
um you know enthusiasts like me and i

1826
01:01:03,430 --> 01:01:01,520
gotta be very clear i mean i i always

1827
01:01:05,349 --> 01:01:03,440
try to be a science-minded person but i

1828
01:01:06,069 --> 01:01:05,359
am not a qualified scientist i'm not

1829
01:01:08,870 --> 01:01:06,079
even

1830
01:01:12,390 --> 01:01:08,880
qualified per se as a historian

1831
01:01:17,190 --> 01:01:15,109
historical writers who are not again

1832
01:01:19,030 --> 01:01:17,200
people who hold a historic a history

1833
01:01:21,030 --> 01:01:19,040
degree they aren't a professor of

1834
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:21,040
history doesn't mean that you know for

1835
01:01:24,390 --> 01:01:22,720
instance just because you don't have a

1836
01:01:26,069 --> 01:01:24,400
degree in physics or anthropology or

1837
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:26,079
biology that you can't go do science but

1838
01:01:31,109 --> 01:01:28,240
all that said as a

1839
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:31,119
a self-educated um you know you you you

1840
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:32,640
might call me an auto diet act or

1841
01:01:36,309 --> 01:01:34,640
someone who is just you know who's just

1842
01:01:38,230 --> 01:01:36,319
thirsty for knowledge

1843
01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:38,240
i love this stuff and i can speak and i

1844
01:01:41,190 --> 01:01:40,160
try to speak

1845
01:01:43,349 --> 01:01:41,200
um

1846
01:01:45,190 --> 01:01:43,359
eloquently and and and from a position

1847
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:45,200
of being well informed on these topics

1848
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:46,319
without

1849
01:01:50,069 --> 01:01:48,400
sounding like an evangelist

1850
01:01:52,230 --> 01:01:50,079
but i realize and have long realized

1851
01:01:53,750 --> 01:01:52,240
that just because i can talk about it or

1852
01:01:55,910 --> 01:01:53,760
try to talk about it in that capacity

1853
01:01:57,270 --> 01:01:55,920
doesn't necessarily do it any favors the

1854
01:01:59,270 --> 01:01:57,280
best that may come of it and this is one

1855
01:02:01,990 --> 01:01:59,280
thing i do take pride in

1856
01:02:03,270 --> 01:02:02,000
is that a scientist if i'm able to

1857
01:02:05,910 --> 01:02:03,280
employ enough

1858
01:02:07,589 --> 01:02:05,920
of a scientist's language may hear me

1859
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:07,599
speak about these topics and say okay

1860
01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:09,119
well this guy's not there making crazy

1861
01:02:12,870 --> 01:02:10,319
claims

1862
01:02:14,069 --> 01:02:12,880
he sounds pretty well informed and i can

1863
01:02:15,829 --> 01:02:14,079
speak to that point because i know more

1864
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:15,839
than he does about anthropology and so

1865
01:02:19,510 --> 01:02:18,160
he's done his homework and so maybe i'll

1866
01:02:21,589 --> 01:02:19,520
take a look at it and this has happened

1867
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:21,599
and i've had scientists people in a

1868
01:02:25,990 --> 01:02:23,920
variety of different fields

1869
01:02:27,589 --> 01:02:26,000
listen to what i'll say and then they'll

1870
01:02:29,829 --> 01:02:27,599
say they'll reach out and say i enjoy

1871
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:29,839
your show and here's some ideas kid you

1872
01:02:31,750 --> 01:02:30,880
know they'll help me out you know

1873
01:02:32,950 --> 01:02:31,760
they'll say here's some things to

1874
01:02:34,950 --> 01:02:32,960
consider but

1875
01:02:37,349 --> 01:02:34,960
um and this is humbling for me they may

1876
01:02:38,710 --> 01:02:37,359
also say and you have caused me to think

1877
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:38,720
twice about something i would have just

1878
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:39,920
laughed at

1879
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:41,599
but now how here's the question to your

1880
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:43,920
point nathan you know how do we get that

1881
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:45,839
kind of thought

1882
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:48,880
you know propagating uh more so

1883
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:50,880
we already are beginning to see that but

1884
01:02:53,510 --> 01:02:52,240
again it takes more than just people who

1885
01:02:55,270 --> 01:02:53,520
are interested in the phenomenon this is

1886
01:02:57,109 --> 01:02:55,280
one reason that you mentioned chrissy

1887
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:57,119
newton my colleague there at the debrief

1888
01:03:01,029 --> 01:02:58,559
and one reason that chrissy and i work

1889
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:01,039
very closely together has everything to

1890
01:03:04,069 --> 01:03:02,480
do with her background

1891
01:03:06,390 --> 01:03:04,079
in media relations and being a

1892
01:03:07,990 --> 01:03:06,400
communicator um i might be a good

1893
01:03:10,069 --> 01:03:08,000
science communicator but if people don't

1894
01:03:12,470 --> 01:03:10,079
hear what i say that's all for naught

1895
01:03:14,230 --> 01:03:12,480
but chrissy has a superpower of getting

1896
01:03:16,309 --> 01:03:14,240
that out in front of people so that more

1897
01:03:17,430 --> 01:03:16,319
people hear it and that that message is

1898
01:03:19,829 --> 01:03:17,440
something that people can find

1899
01:03:21,109 --> 01:03:19,839
christie's also i have to say in in her

1900
01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:21,119
own right

1901
01:03:26,230 --> 01:03:24,160
remarkable it collecting information um

1902
01:03:28,230 --> 01:03:26,240
building relationships with people and

1903
01:03:30,230 --> 01:03:28,240
you need people like that who can do

1904
01:03:32,470 --> 01:03:30,240
that and frankly people who can work

1905
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:32,480
with individuals like me so that we can

1906
01:03:37,349 --> 01:03:34,240
reach people and that we can present

1907
01:03:39,029 --> 01:03:37,359
information to a broader demographic but

1908
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:39,039
a few years ago i threw my hat into the

1909
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:40,559
ring with an organization called the

1910
01:03:43,910 --> 01:03:42,480
scientific coalition for uap studies

1911
01:03:47,430 --> 01:03:43,920
i've never been a member of groups and

1912
01:03:49,270 --> 01:03:47,440
frankly never liked groups but what scu

1913
01:03:51,029 --> 01:03:49,280
as it's called does is very different

1914
01:03:52,710 --> 01:03:51,039
from other groups that look for instance

1915
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:52,720
at uap

1916
01:03:56,470 --> 01:03:54,880
they are a group of mostly scientists

1917
01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:56,480
and professionals who are applying

1918
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:58,960
science toward trying to analyze this

1919
01:04:01,829 --> 01:03:59,920
topic

1920
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:01,839
and and trying to provide reliable

1921
01:04:07,589 --> 01:04:05,520
information for lawmakers and for others

1922
01:04:10,069 --> 01:04:07,599
especially those who are in a capacity

1923
01:04:11,349 --> 01:04:10,079
to present information in a legislative

1924
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:11,359
capacity

1925
01:04:14,630 --> 01:04:13,359
i joined that team in the furtherance of

1926
01:04:16,309 --> 01:04:14,640
exactly what you're talking about and i

1927
01:04:19,430 --> 01:04:16,319
brought chrissy over from

1928
01:04:21,270 --> 01:04:19,440
the debrief uh to assist with the

1929
01:04:22,870 --> 01:04:21,280
efforts right now currently underway by

1930
01:04:25,910 --> 01:04:22,880
the scu to

1931
01:04:27,670 --> 01:04:25,920
um help get scientists on our team more

1932
01:04:28,470 --> 01:04:27,680
qualified by far than me but who can

1933
01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:28,480
speak

1934
01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:30,640
as well or better than i do about the

1935
01:04:35,430 --> 01:04:32,880
science aspects of uap to get those

1936
01:04:37,510 --> 01:04:35,440
individuals out in front of the public

1937
01:04:39,750 --> 01:04:37,520
and informing lawmakers and forming

1938
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:39,760
other scientists and forming uh members

1939
01:04:43,589 --> 01:04:42,000
of the media about

1940
01:04:45,349 --> 01:04:43,599
what uap might represent and what

1941
01:04:46,630 --> 01:04:45,359
science really can tell us about it so

1942
01:04:48,150 --> 01:04:46,640
so those are kind of kind of some of the

1943
01:04:51,589 --> 01:04:48,160
things that folks like chrissy and i

1944
01:04:54,069 --> 01:04:51,599
alejandra rojas and many others do in in

1945
01:04:55,270 --> 01:04:54,079
support of an organization like scu and

1946
01:04:57,670 --> 01:04:55,280
to your point nathan i think that we

1947
01:05:00,390 --> 01:04:57,680
need more groups like scu that are

1948
01:05:02,390 --> 01:05:00,400
working to try and to bring to public

1949
01:05:05,510 --> 01:05:02,400
attention in a real world scientifically

1950
01:05:07,029 --> 01:05:05,520
literate way the reality of these issues

1951
01:05:08,950 --> 01:05:07,039
when it comes to sasquatch there isn't a

1952
01:05:10,710 --> 01:05:08,960
scientific coalition for sasquatch

1953
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:10,720
studies but there is again an

1954
01:05:14,549 --> 01:05:12,880
aforementioned group uh that i mentioned

1955
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:14,559
the north american wood ape conservancy

1956
01:05:18,309 --> 01:05:16,000
which is again

1957
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:18,319
uh it's i've come to know a lot of the

1958
01:05:21,589 --> 01:05:20,160
members of that group

1959
01:05:24,150 --> 01:05:21,599
um and

1960
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:24,160
they many of them are um you know

1961
01:05:28,789 --> 01:05:26,880
scientists anthropologists people with

1962
01:05:30,549 --> 01:05:28,799
similar backgrounds

1963
01:05:31,990 --> 01:05:30,559
some of whom have had first-hand

1964
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:32,000
experiences with what with what they

1965
01:05:37,109 --> 01:05:34,400
believe are relic tominoids having

1966
01:05:39,349 --> 01:05:37,119
observed these things they operate and

1967
01:05:41,910 --> 01:05:39,359
this is unfortunate they've managed to

1968
01:05:43,430 --> 01:05:41,920
kind of create some controversy as a

1969
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:43,440
result of being a what we would call a

1970
01:05:48,069 --> 01:05:45,280
pro-kill organization

1971
01:05:49,589 --> 01:05:48,079
um i don't like that idea and initially

1972
01:05:50,950 --> 01:05:49,599
when i first heard this there's a group

1973
01:05:52,470 --> 01:05:50,960
out here who's doing field work and they

1974
01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:52,480
say we need to kill a sasquatch i'm like

1975
01:05:55,349 --> 01:05:54,160
well first of all sasquatch exists the

1976
01:05:57,109 --> 01:05:55,359
last thing i think we need to do is be

1977
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:57,119
going out and shooting one as i've come

1978
01:05:59,990 --> 01:05:58,799
to know a lot of the organization

1979
01:06:01,589 --> 01:06:00,000
members though they don't they don't

1980
01:06:02,950 --> 01:06:01,599
like that idea

1981
01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:02,960
they're not

1982
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:06,559
glory

1983
01:06:12,710 --> 01:06:09,599
they have a a system in place where

1984
01:06:16,069 --> 01:06:12,720
if that opportunity arises their

1985
01:06:17,670 --> 01:06:16,079
sole objective is a to establish

1986
01:06:20,150 --> 01:06:17,680
once and for all

1987
01:06:22,230 --> 01:06:20,160
that we have a type specimen

1988
01:06:24,150 --> 01:06:22,240
and once it is a recognized species

1989
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:24,160
their intent is to ensure that there is

1990
01:06:27,750 --> 01:06:26,240
never a chance an opportunity ever again

1991
01:06:29,589 --> 01:06:27,760
for anyone to kill one

1992
01:06:32,309 --> 01:06:29,599
um they want protection for these

1993
01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:32,319
creatures but like any other biological

1994
01:06:36,309 --> 01:06:33,520
organism

1995
01:06:39,109 --> 01:06:36,319
uh and this is always the case

1996
01:06:42,309 --> 01:06:39,119
a a type specimen is required

1997
01:06:44,390 --> 01:06:42,319
for it to be deemed scientifically

1998
01:06:46,630 --> 01:06:44,400
uh real you know for it to be

1999
01:06:49,109 --> 01:06:46,640
established as a living

2000
01:06:50,789 --> 01:06:49,119
specimen a species um and in the words

2001
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:50,799
of the late anthropologist grover krantz

2002
01:06:53,910 --> 01:06:52,480
as grisly as that may sound that's

2003
01:06:56,630 --> 01:06:53,920
really how science works and that's what

2004
01:06:58,069 --> 01:06:56,640
we have to do so all that said you know

2005
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:58,079
i have come to

2006
01:07:01,029 --> 01:06:59,440
in the furtherance of science and i get

2007
01:07:02,789 --> 01:07:01,039
it there are moral dilemmas there are

2008
01:07:03,829 --> 01:07:02,799
other implications involved with going

2009
01:07:05,349 --> 01:07:03,839
people want to go out there and shoot a

2010
01:07:06,630 --> 01:07:05,359
sasquatch there's a right and a wrong

2011
01:07:07,829 --> 01:07:06,640
way to do that and i still don't like

2012
01:07:09,589 --> 01:07:07,839
the idea and when i've spoken with

2013
01:07:10,470 --> 01:07:09,599
members of norwalk they'll say

2014
01:07:11,750 --> 01:07:10,480
look

2015
01:07:13,029 --> 01:07:11,760
none of us want to be the one that pulls

2016
01:07:14,710 --> 01:07:13,039
the trigger but we all collectively

2017
01:07:16,470 --> 01:07:14,720
recognize that that's what has to happen

2018
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:16,480
to protect these things

2019
01:07:20,470 --> 01:07:18,160
which is strange and paradoxical in

2020
01:07:21,910 --> 01:07:20,480
itself lots of paradoxes in these topics

2021
01:07:24,230 --> 01:07:21,920
but i think that that's what has to

2022
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:24,240
happen we have to have groups that

2023
01:07:29,589 --> 01:07:26,559
are willing to take real world sometimes

2024
01:07:31,430 --> 01:07:29,599
difficult approaches toward study of

2025
01:07:34,309 --> 01:07:31,440
these phenomena

2026
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:34,319
and and and there need to be efforts

2027
01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:35,760
made by individuals to try and

2028
01:07:38,870 --> 01:07:37,680
legitimize the way these things are

2029
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:38,880
discussed

2030
01:07:42,230 --> 01:07:40,559
and also the people

2031
01:07:44,150 --> 01:07:42,240
who are looking at them and last point

2032
01:07:46,069 --> 01:07:44,160
i'll make also this is also part of the

2033
01:07:47,829 --> 01:07:46,079
the uh the i guess what you might call

2034
01:07:49,750 --> 01:07:47,839
the mission of the debrief

2035
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:49,760
um you know i co-founded the debrief in

2036
01:07:55,430 --> 01:07:53,839
late 1920 uh not 1920 i'm not that old

2037
01:07:57,990 --> 01:07:55,440
like 20

2038
01:08:00,390 --> 01:07:58,000
with tim macmillan and mj binayas uh you

2039
01:08:02,150 --> 01:08:00,400
know when i first came up with what the

2040
01:08:04,069 --> 01:08:02,160
initial idea for the debrief was for me

2041
01:08:06,710 --> 01:08:04,079
i wanted to have essentially a website

2042
01:08:09,109 --> 01:08:06,720
or a blog that was just devoted to the

2043
01:08:11,109 --> 01:08:09,119
current developments with uap

2044
01:08:13,430 --> 01:08:11,119
um and it was tim tim was the first

2045
01:08:14,950 --> 01:08:13,440
person i went to with that idea and tim

2046
01:08:16,149 --> 01:08:14,960
had kind of said you know maybe you

2047
01:08:17,269 --> 01:08:16,159
should be open

2048
01:08:18,950 --> 01:08:17,279
with this i'm not going to tell you how

2049
01:08:21,590 --> 01:08:18,960
to run your website but you know maybe

2050
01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:21,600
you should be open to doing other things

2051
01:08:25,189 --> 01:08:23,520
and so as we batted the ideas around and

2052
01:08:27,030 --> 01:08:25,199
then we formalized our relationship as

2053
01:08:29,829 --> 01:08:27,040
business partners and then brought mj in

2054
01:08:31,669 --> 01:08:29,839
you know um tim had said you know let's

2055
01:08:34,470 --> 01:08:31,679
let's cover a wide range of material

2056
01:08:36,550 --> 01:08:34,480
because we're doing ufos no service

2057
01:08:38,630 --> 01:08:36,560
if we just become another ufo blog let's

2058
01:08:41,110 --> 01:08:38,640
make this a news site that looks at all

2059
01:08:43,110 --> 01:08:41,120
different kinds of of topics

2060
01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:43,120
and bring ufos into that report on that

2061
01:08:47,189 --> 01:08:45,359
as responsibly and as reliably as

2062
01:08:49,269 --> 01:08:47,199
anything else and i have to say i really

2063
01:08:51,590 --> 01:08:49,279
credit tim with with bringing that

2064
01:08:53,030 --> 01:08:51,600
perspective to this because

2065
01:08:54,870 --> 01:08:53,040
all the things that we cover at the

2066
01:08:57,030 --> 01:08:54,880
debrief we hope to try and do

2067
01:08:59,510 --> 01:08:57,040
legitimately and with a scientific

2068
01:09:01,189 --> 01:08:59,520
literacy and when we talk about ufos we

2069
01:09:02,550 --> 01:09:01,199
treat that just like any other subject

2070
01:09:04,550 --> 01:09:02,560
we don't treat it like wow this is

2071
01:09:07,110 --> 01:09:04,560
extraordinary this is incredible you

2072
01:09:09,669 --> 01:09:07,120
know it's it's something that is is very

2073
01:09:11,990 --> 01:09:09,679
timely um and there's a lot of data

2074
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:12,000
about and people who have been resistant

2075
01:09:14,630 --> 01:09:13,520
to that and who have said oh come on

2076
01:09:15,910 --> 01:09:14,640
this is i don't want to hear about

2077
01:09:17,990 --> 01:09:15,920
little green men look there's a whole

2078
01:09:20,390 --> 01:09:18,000
lot more to this topic and so as

2079
01:09:21,749 --> 01:09:20,400
journalists we can do that too all of

2080
01:09:24,789 --> 01:09:21,759
these things part of the collective

2081
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:24,799
effort to help destigmatize and raise

2082
01:09:28,309 --> 01:09:26,640
the bar on the level of dialogue on

2083
01:09:30,470 --> 01:09:28,319
these topics

2084
01:09:33,030 --> 01:09:30,480
i i'd like to pick up on that point you

2085
01:09:36,229 --> 01:09:33,040
had earlier and i can tell you that it's

2086
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:36,239
not in the nature of cab to ask very

2087
01:09:40,309 --> 01:09:38,319
challenging questions it's not really

2088
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:40,319
we're really a very positive thing and

2089
01:09:44,950 --> 01:09:41,920
we want everybody to have a good time

2090
01:09:47,510 --> 01:09:44,960
but i did hear uh that gentleman i want

2091
01:09:49,110 --> 01:09:47,520
to say that you had on from norwack

2092
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:49,120
what's his name

2093
01:09:51,829 --> 01:09:50,880
uh well they've been a few of the most

2094
01:09:54,790 --> 01:09:51,839
recently

2095
01:09:56,310 --> 01:09:54,800
paul bowman yes mr bowman right

2096
01:09:58,630 --> 01:09:56,320
so

2097
01:10:00,709 --> 01:09:58,640
if in the interest of science

2098
01:10:02,310 --> 01:10:00,719
we can rationalize shooting and killing

2099
01:10:05,189 --> 01:10:02,320
a sasquatch

2100
01:10:07,910 --> 01:10:05,199
then if we take the reports of people

2101
01:10:10,229 --> 01:10:07,920
who have talked about abductions and and

2102
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:10,239
on background you will hear that there

2103
01:10:13,910 --> 01:10:12,080
have been some more sinister

2104
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:13,920
interactions with humans and the

2105
01:10:18,790 --> 01:10:17,199
phenomenon that have led to people not

2106
01:10:21,110 --> 01:10:18,800
coming back

2107
01:10:23,270 --> 01:10:21,120
for one reason or another so if we can

2108
01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:23,280
rationalize shooting and killing a book

2109
01:10:26,550 --> 01:10:24,640
a bigfoot

2110
01:10:29,030 --> 01:10:26,560
then for the phenomenon which is of a

2111
01:10:32,709 --> 01:10:29,040
higher intelligence than us

2112
01:10:34,149 --> 01:10:32,719
can we rationalize and morally accept

2113
01:10:36,630 --> 01:10:34,159
them shooting

2114
01:10:37,750 --> 01:10:36,640
not shooting but killing or taking

2115
01:10:39,990 --> 01:10:37,760
keeping

2116
01:10:40,950 --> 01:10:40,000
one of us in furtherance of their signs

2117
01:10:43,430 --> 01:10:40,960
since they're

2118
01:10:45,430 --> 01:10:43,440
since it's it's analogous to us and i i

2119
01:10:46,709 --> 01:10:45,440
think that's a reasonable question to

2120
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:46,719
ask

2121
01:10:49,990 --> 01:10:48,560
that's a very reasonable question dj and

2122
01:10:52,070 --> 01:10:50,000
um

2123
01:10:53,510 --> 01:10:52,080
very interesting one as well because

2124
01:10:55,270 --> 01:10:53,520
as humans

2125
01:10:57,189 --> 01:10:55,280
you know we

2126
01:10:58,870 --> 01:10:57,199
we have evolved to be

2127
01:11:00,310 --> 01:10:58,880
intellectually and as a result of our

2128
01:11:03,189 --> 01:11:00,320
intellect

2129
01:11:05,830 --> 01:11:03,199
we've resolved we have evolved to be the

2130
01:11:08,070 --> 01:11:05,840
most formidable species on this planet

2131
01:11:09,750 --> 01:11:08,080
uh more dangerous

2132
01:11:11,590 --> 01:11:09,760
predatory animals that under the right

2133
01:11:12,390 --> 01:11:11,600
circumstances can still have us for

2134
01:11:15,030 --> 01:11:12,400
lunch

2135
01:11:18,229 --> 01:11:15,040
are no longer collectively our greatest

2136
01:11:20,070 --> 01:11:18,239
concern that you know we are more far

2137
01:11:22,229 --> 01:11:20,080
greater a concern i should say to those

2138
01:11:25,270 --> 01:11:22,239
species than they are to us

2139
01:11:28,310 --> 01:11:25,280
and as a result of that humans operate

2140
01:11:30,550 --> 01:11:28,320
with a kind of comfort that we are the

2141
01:11:32,950 --> 01:11:30,560
top species we're at the top of the food

2142
01:11:35,110 --> 01:11:32,960
chain we don't most people don't worry

2143
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:35,120
about the idea that the kinds of things

2144
01:11:39,110 --> 01:11:37,280
that we would do in the furtherance of

2145
01:11:42,470 --> 01:11:39,120
you know expanding our taxonomical

2146
01:11:44,070 --> 01:11:42,480
knowledge of you know biology and

2147
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:44,080
and anything else

2148
01:11:48,229 --> 01:11:46,159
that there might be another species that

2149
01:11:49,750 --> 01:11:48,239
would do that with us or that even

2150
01:11:51,669 --> 01:11:49,760
current and has

2151
01:11:53,189 --> 01:11:51,679
and and has and

2152
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:53,199
even currently i mean again that maybe

2153
01:11:56,790 --> 01:11:55,679
we could say is somewhat speculative but

2154
01:11:58,070 --> 01:11:56,800
um

2155
01:12:00,070 --> 01:11:58,080
and this is something that's kind of odd

2156
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:00,080
it comes over to another

2157
01:12:04,390 --> 01:12:02,560
paradox of ufology if we look back at

2158
01:12:06,149 --> 01:12:04,400
the early days

2159
01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:06,159
um

2160
01:12:09,110 --> 01:12:07,760
organizations like national

2161
01:12:11,910 --> 01:12:09,120
investigations committee on aerial

2162
01:12:14,229 --> 01:12:11,920
phenomena nycap they were the big dogs

2163
01:12:15,270 --> 01:12:14,239
before mufon and before scu and others

2164
01:12:17,030 --> 01:12:15,280
there was another one that was a

2165
01:12:19,590 --> 01:12:17,040
civilian group called apro

2166
01:12:21,830 --> 01:12:19,600
um that jim and coral lorenzen ran but

2167
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:21,840
uh and did fantastic work too

2168
01:12:27,030 --> 01:12:24,560
but it's strange to me that nycap early

2169
01:12:29,910 --> 01:12:27,040
on when they came across reports that

2170
01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:29,920
involved a sighting of a humanoid

2171
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:31,679
initially they were really really really

2172
01:12:36,709 --> 01:12:34,000
averse to that and

2173
01:12:38,630 --> 01:12:36,719
there was a brazilian researcher who uh

2174
01:12:40,630 --> 01:12:38,640
was a member of april who first brought

2175
01:12:42,950 --> 01:12:40,640
to the lorenzen's attention

2176
01:12:45,030 --> 01:12:42,960
an incident from back in the late 1950s

2177
01:12:47,270 --> 01:12:45,040
i think it was 56 or 57 involving a man

2178
01:12:49,430 --> 01:12:47,280
antonio vila boas this was

2179
01:12:51,189 --> 01:12:49,440
one of the first alleged abductions that

2180
01:12:52,310 --> 01:12:51,199
occurred and i mean it was a very

2181
01:12:54,950 --> 01:12:52,320
the way he described it these

2182
01:12:56,950 --> 01:12:54,960
individuals came down in an egg-shaped

2183
01:12:58,470 --> 01:12:56,960
craft which in some accounts sounded

2184
01:13:00,950 --> 01:12:58,480
very much like a helicopter but he was

2185
01:13:02,630 --> 01:13:00,960
taken on board his clothing was removed

2186
01:13:04,709 --> 01:13:02,640
it was covered up in this kind of jelly

2187
01:13:06,630 --> 01:13:04,719
which he speculated sort of later that

2188
01:13:08,950 --> 01:13:06,640
might have been an aphrodisiac and then

2189
01:13:11,350 --> 01:13:08,960
a blonde woman came into the room and

2190
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:11,360
nature took its course um

2191
01:13:14,070 --> 01:13:12,480
a lot of people would say that sounds a

2192
01:13:17,350 --> 01:13:14,080
whole lot more like science fiction than

2193
01:13:19,590 --> 01:13:17,360
science fact but uh it was treated very

2194
01:13:21,830 --> 01:13:19,600
seriously but was kept quiet early on by

2195
01:13:23,110 --> 01:13:21,840
april and researchers who first learned

2196
01:13:25,350 --> 01:13:23,120
about it because

2197
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:25,360
at that time nobody took abductions

2198
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:27,600
seriously and then throughout the 1970s

2199
01:13:30,630 --> 01:13:29,199
with other higher profile cases like

2200
01:13:31,990 --> 01:13:30,640
travis walton and others where these

2201
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:32,000
individuals did come back and they did

2202
01:13:35,189 --> 01:13:33,360
tell of a story where they encountered

2203
01:13:36,950 --> 01:13:35,199
sometimes what looked like humans travis

2204
01:13:38,470 --> 01:13:36,960
walton described human-like you know

2205
01:13:39,910 --> 01:13:38,480
entities but he also described other

2206
01:13:41,669 --> 01:13:39,920
things too

2207
01:13:43,510 --> 01:13:41,679
and these cases began to really get that

2208
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:43,520
ball moving on well there's not just a

2209
01:13:47,669 --> 01:13:45,120
phenomenon but it's interacting with us

2210
01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:47,679
they're capturing human beings

2211
01:13:51,350 --> 01:13:49,679
of course this reaches critical mass in

2212
01:13:53,189 --> 01:13:51,360
the 80s and 90s with the publication of

2213
01:13:55,110 --> 01:13:53,199
books like communion by whitley strieber

2214
01:13:57,110 --> 01:13:55,120
and intruders by bud hopkins and then

2215
01:13:58,630 --> 01:13:57,120
the sequels to those books

2216
01:14:00,390 --> 01:13:58,640
but today

2217
01:14:01,590 --> 01:14:00,400
and i have some reservations about you

2218
01:14:03,030 --> 01:14:01,600
know all of the aforementioned

2219
01:14:04,870 --> 01:14:03,040
literature and looking at all of it and

2220
01:14:06,390 --> 01:14:04,880
taking it all at face value but i do

2221
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:06,400
think that there are some very credible

2222
01:14:10,390 --> 01:14:08,640
instances of purported abductions or

2223
01:14:12,149 --> 01:14:10,400
captures and

2224
01:14:13,350 --> 01:14:12,159
and uh you know again we could talk

2225
01:14:14,550 --> 01:14:13,360
about betty and barney hill and some of

2226
01:14:15,669 --> 01:14:14,560
the interesting things that happened to

2227
01:14:17,830 --> 01:14:15,679
them

2228
01:14:19,910 --> 01:14:17,840
but in the modern uap dialogue isn't it

2229
01:14:21,510 --> 01:14:19,920
bizarre that people only want to talk

2230
01:14:22,790 --> 01:14:21,520
about the objects

2231
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:22,800
they don't want to talk about the rich

2232
01:14:26,709 --> 01:14:24,480
history of sightings of humanoid

2233
01:14:28,229 --> 01:14:26,719
occupants sometimes outside of these

2234
01:14:30,390 --> 01:14:28,239
craft even if we don't want to get into

2235
01:14:32,630 --> 01:14:30,400
discussing like abductions look at like

2236
01:14:35,510 --> 01:14:32,640
lonnie zamora and the zocoro new mexico

2237
01:14:37,910 --> 01:14:35,520
incident from 19 was it 64

2238
01:14:41,189 --> 01:14:37,920
or was it 67 again i'm really doing a

2239
01:14:44,630 --> 01:14:41,199
great job oh that was 64. 64. 64. april

2240
01:14:46,870 --> 01:14:44,640
6th april 24th 21st april 21st 1964. i

2241
01:14:49,030 --> 01:14:46,880
think so anyway when his point is though

2242
01:14:50,550 --> 01:14:49,040
he sees two individuals outside of this

2243
01:14:53,110 --> 01:14:50,560
again for lack of a better trauma tic

2244
01:14:54,390 --> 01:14:53,120
tac on kind of a tripod landed out there

2245
01:14:56,870 --> 01:14:54,400
in an arroyo

2246
01:14:58,229 --> 01:14:56,880
near socorro new mexico okay if it's too

2247
01:15:00,149 --> 01:14:58,239
much for you to say that these people

2248
01:15:02,149 --> 01:15:00,159
are being captured being examined and

2249
01:15:04,550 --> 01:15:02,159
all of this at least acknowledge that

2250
01:15:05,750 --> 01:15:04,560
there have been human humanoid occupy

2251
01:15:07,750 --> 01:15:05,760
occupants who have been observed in

2252
01:15:09,350 --> 01:15:07,760
conjunction with land of ufo sightings

2253
01:15:11,830 --> 01:15:09,360
you don't hear anything about that in

2254
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:11,840
the modern dialogue people i mean

2255
01:15:16,470 --> 01:15:14,159
yet again that seems to be

2256
01:15:17,750 --> 01:15:16,480
like the next step the next phase of the

2257
01:15:19,430 --> 01:15:17,760
paradigm but like we're to the point

2258
01:15:21,110 --> 01:15:19,440
where we can talk about ufos and people

2259
01:15:22,630 --> 01:15:21,120
studying them our government studying

2260
01:15:23,910 --> 01:15:22,640
them and collecting data but we don't

2261
01:15:25,910 --> 01:15:23,920
want to hear about humanoids yet i'm

2262
01:15:27,430 --> 01:15:25,920
like this is just so bizarre anyway back

2263
01:15:29,510 --> 01:15:27,440
to your point

2264
01:15:32,550 --> 01:15:29,520
as top dog we're thinking that we're the

2265
01:15:33,990 --> 01:15:32,560
top of the food chain on this planet we

2266
01:15:35,590 --> 01:15:34,000
seem to be really comfortable with you

2267
01:15:37,110 --> 01:15:35,600
know collecting specimens we don't like

2268
01:15:38,550 --> 01:15:37,120
the idea of someone or something doing

2269
01:15:40,630 --> 01:15:38,560
that to us

2270
01:15:42,310 --> 01:15:40,640
but if we really look deeply

2271
01:15:44,149 --> 01:15:42,320
at the body of data that's been

2272
01:15:46,149 --> 01:15:44,159
collected by civilian organizations

2273
01:15:48,229 --> 01:15:46,159
about this phenomenon

2274
01:15:50,709 --> 01:15:48,239
there is some data that is suggestive of

2275
01:15:52,310 --> 01:15:50,719
that and i wonder sometimes if people's

2276
01:15:54,149 --> 01:15:52,320
aversion to wanting to talk about the

2277
01:15:56,470 --> 01:15:54,159
humanoid component

2278
01:15:58,310 --> 01:15:56,480
to wanting to talk about the experiences

2279
01:16:01,590 --> 01:15:58,320
of experiencers

2280
01:16:03,030 --> 01:16:01,600
is it a fundamental almost like a

2281
01:16:04,830 --> 01:16:03,040
is it almost

2282
01:16:07,270 --> 01:16:04,840
like like a subliminal or an

2283
01:16:09,350 --> 01:16:07,280
unacknowledged fear that they have right

2284
01:16:10,790 --> 01:16:09,360
of having to reconcile with

2285
01:16:12,550 --> 01:16:10,800
what if we aren't at the top of the food

2286
01:16:14,950 --> 01:16:12,560
chain what if there is something more

2287
01:16:16,630 --> 01:16:14,960
and what if these intelligences

2288
01:16:18,229 --> 01:16:16,640
view us like we would view any other

2289
01:16:19,990 --> 01:16:18,239
kind of a specimen right and that they

2290
01:16:21,669 --> 01:16:20,000
would be willing to take a specimen when

2291
01:16:24,070 --> 01:16:21,679
we're applicable

2292
01:16:25,350 --> 01:16:24,080
that's that's the that's my point is mr

2293
01:16:27,270 --> 01:16:25,360
bowman can

2294
01:16:29,189 --> 01:16:27,280
can say it's in the interest of science

2295
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:29,199
all he wants it's no

2296
01:16:35,110 --> 01:16:32,640
more moralistically correct than a

2297
01:16:37,510 --> 01:16:35,120
phenomenon a phenomenon coming here

2298
01:16:40,149 --> 01:16:37,520
taking a human and by whatever

2299
01:16:42,470 --> 01:16:40,159
happenstance they never come back and

2300
01:16:44,550 --> 01:16:42,480
that's not acceptable to us nor should

2301
01:16:46,229 --> 01:16:44,560
it be to shoot a bigfoot say hey we got

2302
01:16:49,350 --> 01:16:46,239
one here's the dna

2303
01:16:51,669 --> 01:16:49,360
okay so it exists great well uh yeah

2304
01:16:53,189 --> 01:16:51,679
they they're gonna the the the the

2305
01:16:56,229 --> 01:16:53,199
higher intelligence would say the same

2306
01:16:58,310 --> 01:16:56,239
of us hey we had to take one god

2307
01:17:00,950 --> 01:16:58,320
you know got to take one

2308
01:17:03,189 --> 01:17:00,960
is that okay with us no that's not okay

2309
01:17:04,790 --> 01:17:03,199
and lou actually has alluded to that and

2310
01:17:06,709 --> 01:17:04,800
if you if you speak with the right

2311
01:17:08,870 --> 01:17:06,719
people and i know you guys do speak with

2312
01:17:10,950 --> 01:17:08,880
the right people you'll find out that

2313
01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:10,960
perhaps that those instances have

2314
01:17:15,590 --> 01:17:13,280
occurred uh where people

2315
01:17:17,750 --> 01:17:15,600
uh have gone missing in this the

2316
01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:17,760
supposition is that uh for that reason

2317
01:17:20,630 --> 01:17:18,640
and uh

2318
01:17:22,229 --> 01:17:20,640
if you want to do it and you would say i

2319
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:22,239
want to shoot one i don't want to but

2320
01:17:26,310 --> 01:17:24,400
i'm going to that's fine but don't don't

2321
01:17:28,390 --> 01:17:26,320
try to morally justify it because it's

2322
01:17:29,910 --> 01:17:28,400
no different than if it happened to me

2323
01:17:31,750 --> 01:17:29,920
and nathan could say ah well you know

2324
01:17:35,030 --> 01:17:31,760
they needed to get one so they took dj

2325
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:39,110
so anyway let me pass it to kevin

2326
01:17:42,870 --> 01:17:41,030
well the conversation took a serious

2327
01:17:44,709 --> 01:17:42,880
turn i had a banana joke in there

2328
01:17:47,590 --> 01:17:44,719
somewhere but man

2329
01:17:49,990 --> 01:17:47,600
i'm not gonna even go there now

2330
01:17:52,070 --> 01:17:50,000
so instead i had a question about human

2331
01:17:53,430 --> 01:17:52,080
linguistics so now this is something

2332
01:17:55,350 --> 01:17:53,440
that's been bothering me and it's

2333
01:17:57,510 --> 01:17:55,360
something that like at work we've had a

2334
01:17:59,430 --> 01:17:57,520
debate about now if you have

2335
01:18:03,590 --> 01:17:59,440
more than one bigfoot

2336
01:18:05,669 --> 01:18:03,600
in an area is it big feet

2337
01:18:08,390 --> 01:18:05,679
that's a good question yeah i see people

2338
01:18:10,390 --> 01:18:08,400
um i i would say big feet and you guys

2339
01:18:13,270 --> 01:18:10,400
noticed preferentially i i used the

2340
01:18:16,390 --> 01:18:13,280
expression sasquatch for me that's just

2341
01:18:18,950 --> 01:18:16,400
a nod to uh with respect to indigenous

2342
01:18:21,669 --> 01:18:18,960
traditional cultures but that sasquatch

2343
01:18:23,669 --> 01:18:21,679
is a an anglicized version of an of a

2344
01:18:25,910 --> 01:18:23,679
halcamilam word i believe they would

2345
01:18:27,510 --> 01:18:25,920
have pronounced it more like sasquatch

2346
01:18:29,510 --> 01:18:27,520
but nonetheless you know sasquatch is

2347
01:18:30,709 --> 01:18:29,520
closer than bigfoot right and it's kind

2348
01:18:33,990 --> 01:18:30,719
of like how you won't hear me saying

2349
01:18:36,070 --> 01:18:34,000
flying saucer i'll say ufo or uap

2350
01:18:38,310 --> 01:18:36,080
but but that said uh some people do say

2351
01:18:40,310 --> 01:18:38,320
bigfoot i don't mind that being said um

2352
01:18:42,070 --> 01:18:40,320
and uh and when people do say it i would

2353
01:18:43,669 --> 01:18:42,080
just respectfully ask that they say big

2354
01:18:45,910 --> 01:18:43,679
feet instead of big foots but some

2355
01:18:47,030 --> 01:18:45,920
people say yeah when we see bigfoots out

2356
01:18:49,590 --> 01:18:47,040
there and i'm like that just sounds

2357
01:18:50,870 --> 01:18:49,600
silly right it just sounds silly uh i'm

2358
01:18:53,030 --> 01:18:50,880
gonna correct them

2359
01:18:54,790 --> 01:18:53,040
right i would say big feet i mean but

2360
01:18:55,510 --> 01:18:54,800
then again some would also say but micah

2361
01:18:59,270 --> 01:18:55,520
be

2362
01:19:01,910 --> 01:18:59,280
you wouldn't say meese right

2363
01:19:03,750 --> 01:19:01,920
exactly you would say but then again

2364
01:19:06,149 --> 01:19:03,760
again this just shows how

2365
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:06,159
complex uh language is and and it's very

2366
01:19:09,590 --> 01:19:07,679
i propose that you mentioned this kevin

2367
01:19:11,750 --> 01:19:09,600
because you would say

2368
01:19:14,310 --> 01:19:11,760
geese not gooses right

2369
01:19:17,030 --> 01:19:14,320
so now explain this one to me i can say

2370
01:19:18,790 --> 01:19:17,040
mooses not me but i say geese not gooses

2371
01:19:21,510 --> 01:19:18,800
right do you guys remember gallagher

2372
01:19:23,270 --> 01:19:21,520
right the comedian saying you know that

2373
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:23,280
they go to they they take you to school

2374
01:19:26,310 --> 01:19:24,480
to learn how to communicate but then

2375
01:19:27,430 --> 01:19:26,320
they tell you not to talk in class

2376
01:19:30,149 --> 01:19:27,440
that's right

2377
01:19:31,910 --> 01:19:30,159
it shouldn't be either world food right

2378
01:19:34,870 --> 01:19:31,920
it should be good food or

2379
01:19:36,390 --> 01:19:34,880
or good food or good food right but it's

2380
01:19:37,830 --> 01:19:36,400
good food right

2381
01:19:40,550 --> 01:19:37,840
you change one letter and it's just

2382
01:19:41,590 --> 01:19:40,560
o-o-o-d but one is uh and one is ooh i

2383
01:19:44,310 --> 01:19:41,600
mean

2384
01:19:45,910 --> 01:19:44,320
go figure so i say big feet right

2385
01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:45,920
no wonder they holler at each other and

2386
01:19:50,790 --> 01:19:47,679
bang on trees i mean that's the easier

2387
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:50,800
way to communicate

2388
01:19:57,590 --> 01:19:54,000
exactly just leave language out of it

2389
01:20:00,390 --> 01:19:57,600
we've got uh 11 minutes left and we have

2390
01:20:02,470 --> 01:20:00,400
uh three people to get in and i'm i'm

2391
01:20:04,870 --> 01:20:02,480
gonna talk to you about sierra sounds

2392
01:20:07,189 --> 01:20:04,880
and those gentlemen from david pelleti's

2393
01:20:08,870 --> 01:20:07,199
book and tom messick and all that but

2394
01:20:10,709 --> 01:20:08,880
let's get to steph and let's try to make

2395
01:20:13,270 --> 01:20:10,719
these rapid fires so we can get get

2396
01:20:15,270 --> 01:20:13,280
three questions in please right on so

2397
01:20:17,590 --> 01:20:15,280
quick question on your theory of intent

2398
01:20:18,629 --> 01:20:17,600
so speaking on these these sexual

2399
01:20:21,590 --> 01:20:18,639
encounters that have happened with

2400
01:20:24,310 --> 01:20:21,600
people auditory type illusions um

2401
01:20:26,790 --> 01:20:24,320
radiation burns so-called pregnancies

2402
01:20:29,110 --> 01:20:26,800
all of these things to me lead to this

2403
01:20:31,350 --> 01:20:29,120
almost like cross-breeding of

2404
01:20:33,430 --> 01:20:31,360
them with us but

2405
01:20:35,910 --> 01:20:33,440
that can't be the only intent

2406
01:20:38,470 --> 01:20:35,920
for or purpose for them visiting us so

2407
01:20:41,189 --> 01:20:38,480
what would your theory of their intent

2408
01:20:43,990 --> 01:20:41,199
besides all of that be

2409
01:20:46,070 --> 01:20:44,000
with uh us here on earth

2410
01:20:48,149 --> 01:20:46,080
um well you know when it comes to uap

2411
01:20:50,709 --> 01:20:48,159
that's it's it's difficult to uh

2412
01:20:52,629 --> 01:20:50,719
determine you know the the scu

2413
01:20:54,070 --> 01:20:52,639
is currently doing an intention study to

2414
01:20:56,709 --> 01:20:54,080
try and understand what the motives and

2415
01:20:58,950 --> 01:20:56,719
intention of these phenomena are um i've

2416
01:21:01,030 --> 01:20:58,960
heard some novel propositions uh one

2417
01:21:02,629 --> 01:21:01,040
being that they are um

2418
01:21:03,990 --> 01:21:02,639
you know scientists and and actually

2419
01:21:06,470 --> 01:21:04,000
there are a few

2420
01:21:09,590 --> 01:21:06,480
you know anecdotal instances where

2421
01:21:11,110 --> 01:21:09,600
experiencers who claim to have

2422
01:21:12,390 --> 01:21:11,120
and these are not people who are going

2423
01:21:14,390 --> 01:21:12,400
out trying to get

2424
01:21:15,830 --> 01:21:14,400
attention you know we're trying to

2425
01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:15,840
write books or

2426
01:21:20,629 --> 01:21:18,000
or or anything people who very quietly

2427
01:21:22,470 --> 01:21:20,639
uh have you know called and and and you

2428
01:21:23,910 --> 01:21:22,480
know you know called hotlines or spoken

2429
01:21:25,110 --> 01:21:23,920
to researchers about experiences that

2430
01:21:26,550 --> 01:21:25,120
disturbed them greatly where they

2431
01:21:29,030 --> 01:21:26,560
encountered these

2432
01:21:30,229 --> 01:21:29,040
phenomena and the occupants we've been

2433
01:21:31,510 --> 01:21:30,239
told uh

2434
01:21:33,110 --> 01:21:31,520
in some regards you know we're

2435
01:21:34,870 --> 01:21:33,120
scientists we mean no harm things like

2436
01:21:37,030 --> 01:21:34,880
that again it sounds very like they the

2437
01:21:38,870 --> 01:21:37,040
earth still type stuff but

2438
01:21:40,790 --> 01:21:38,880
um and then some would ask the question

2439
01:21:42,310 --> 01:21:40,800
okay did they speak to you in english

2440
01:21:44,149 --> 01:21:42,320
did they project their thoughts how did

2441
01:21:45,669 --> 01:21:44,159
this happen lots of mysteries there but

2442
01:21:46,709 --> 01:21:45,679
i mean there there is some anecdotal

2443
01:21:48,550 --> 01:21:46,719
evidence based on what people have

2444
01:21:50,470 --> 01:21:48,560
described that there's an observational

2445
01:21:51,510 --> 01:21:50,480
kind of scientific effort

2446
01:21:53,430 --> 01:21:51,520
some might say that they're here

2447
01:21:54,870 --> 01:21:53,440
harvesting resources you know minerals

2448
01:21:56,470 --> 01:21:54,880
who knows what else

2449
01:21:58,390 --> 01:21:56,480
some might say that the ultimate plan is

2450
01:22:00,229 --> 01:21:58,400
to try and colonize earth

2451
01:22:02,390 --> 01:22:00,239
but that in order to do so they hope to

2452
01:22:04,070 --> 01:22:02,400
try and assimilate into our midst by

2453
01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:04,080
looking like us

2454
01:22:07,270 --> 01:22:05,600
again you start seeing and this is what

2455
01:22:09,030 --> 01:22:07,280
complicates it um

2456
01:22:10,709 --> 01:22:09,040
parallels to science fiction you know

2457
01:22:12,790 --> 01:22:10,719
invasion of the body snatchers you know

2458
01:22:14,790 --> 01:22:12,800
any any of these so but um you know i'm

2459
01:22:16,229 --> 01:22:14,800
being invaded by a large black fly right

2460
01:22:17,590 --> 01:22:16,239
now so

2461
01:22:21,590 --> 01:22:17,600
but as far as

2462
01:22:22,830 --> 01:22:21,600
we can only we can only speculate we can

2463
01:22:24,550 --> 01:22:22,840
only speculate

2464
01:22:26,790 --> 01:22:24,560
sure

2465
01:22:27,910 --> 01:22:26,800
absolutely one hundred percent many many

2466
01:22:30,709 --> 01:22:27,920
things happening

2467
01:22:36,229 --> 01:22:34,390
uh so yeah debrief uh uh staff meetings

2468
01:22:37,910 --> 01:22:36,239
um

2469
01:22:42,070 --> 01:22:37,920
who's the person who's a mic you have to

2470
01:22:48,870 --> 01:22:43,430
uh

2471
01:22:51,350 --> 01:22:48,880
because

2472
01:22:51,990 --> 01:22:51,360
we don't ever almost ever end on time

2473
01:22:53,590 --> 01:22:52,000
and

2474
01:22:55,110 --> 01:22:53,600
there are many cases where after a

2475
01:22:57,030 --> 01:22:55,120
two-hour meeting everybody leaves but

2476
01:22:58,310 --> 01:22:57,040
then tim and i are just the last ones to

2477
01:22:59,350 --> 01:22:58,320
close the window he's like michael by

2478
01:23:00,629 --> 01:22:59,360
the way you got five minutes and then

2479
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:00,639
we'll just start like

2480
01:23:04,870 --> 01:23:03,360
wood shedding and discussing

2481
01:23:06,149 --> 01:23:04,880
stuff like uap and then there's another

2482
01:23:07,669 --> 01:23:06,159
hour and then we'll maybe carry it over

2483
01:23:09,510 --> 01:23:07,679
onto a phone call so we can walk around

2484
01:23:11,430 --> 01:23:09,520
and make coffee and stuff but

2485
01:23:13,430 --> 01:23:11,440
you know and it's it's pretty obvious

2486
01:23:14,790 --> 01:23:13,440
that tim and i uh everybody in the d

2487
01:23:17,030 --> 01:23:14,800
reef we're almost a lot more like a

2488
01:23:19,510 --> 01:23:17,040
family than a

2489
01:23:21,669 --> 01:23:19,520
team of people who work together we

2490
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:21,679
operate and interact like family and

2491
01:23:25,030 --> 01:23:22,960
tease each other and have a lot of fun

2492
01:23:26,629 --> 01:23:25,040
but we accomplish a lot and i think that

2493
01:23:28,550 --> 01:23:26,639
really that's what makes a really great

2494
01:23:29,910 --> 01:23:28,560
working relationship is people who care

2495
01:23:31,189 --> 01:23:29,920
about each other and who work well

2496
01:23:33,110 --> 01:23:31,199
together

2497
01:23:35,750 --> 01:23:33,120
but but yeah it began really with you

2498
01:23:37,350 --> 01:23:35,760
know tim was a listener in my podcast

2499
01:23:39,590 --> 01:23:37,360
and he reached out

2500
01:23:41,270 --> 01:23:39,600
and like a jake the first few times that

2501
01:23:42,550 --> 01:23:41,280
uh he emailed me i mean i was so busy i

2502
01:23:44,390 --> 01:23:42,560
was like yeah i'll get back to this guy

2503
01:23:46,709 --> 01:23:44,400
later and you know and it was one of my

2504
01:23:48,629 --> 01:23:46,719
anthropology friends who lived and

2505
01:23:50,310 --> 01:23:48,639
actually the geologist on my seven ages

2506
01:23:51,669 --> 01:23:50,320
team james waldo

2507
01:23:53,510 --> 01:23:51,679
who lived in savannah georgia at the

2508
01:23:55,110 --> 01:23:53,520
time he said there's this guy who lives

2509
01:23:56,790 --> 01:23:55,120
here in town who i've been catching up

2510
01:23:58,870 --> 01:23:56,800
with and having lunch with and he's he's

2511
01:24:00,149 --> 01:23:58,880
our kind of people i said oh yeah and he

2512
01:24:01,510 --> 01:24:00,159
says yeah his name's tim mcmillan you

2513
01:24:03,830 --> 01:24:01,520
need to meet him mike i'm like oh that

2514
01:24:05,590 --> 01:24:03,840
guy emailed me yeah here we are like

2515
01:24:07,430 --> 01:24:05,600
five you know four years later three

2516
01:24:09,830 --> 01:24:07,440
four years later i guess i think it was

2517
01:24:11,750 --> 01:24:09,840
2019 when he and i first started talking

2518
01:24:13,910 --> 01:24:11,760
so i guess you know three years later or

2519
01:24:15,510 --> 01:24:13,920
so and we've got the debrief and uh but

2520
01:24:18,149 --> 01:24:15,520
but that friendship really is what it's

2521
01:24:19,510 --> 01:24:18,159
all still to me built upon and and yeah

2522
01:24:21,189 --> 01:24:19,520
um

2523
01:24:24,310 --> 01:24:21,199
if it's not him and we have to cut his

2524
01:24:28,830 --> 01:24:25,270
yeah

2525
01:24:30,790 --> 01:24:28,840
you guys are very have a very strong

2526
01:24:32,790 --> 01:24:30,800
collegiality uh you've got each other's

2527
01:24:35,270 --> 01:24:32,800
backs and the fact that you can keep

2528
01:24:37,590 --> 01:24:35,280
going like that to me is a sign of of uh

2529
01:24:39,030 --> 01:24:37,600
just a really positive energy that

2530
01:24:40,149 --> 01:24:39,040
you're bringing and we all benefit from

2531
01:24:41,430 --> 01:24:40,159
it so thank you

2532
01:24:43,510 --> 01:24:41,440
i thank you

2533
01:24:45,830 --> 01:24:43,520
yeah uh shout out to chrissy newton we

2534
01:24:48,390 --> 01:24:45,840
had her on she was great and uh tim

2535
01:24:50,390 --> 01:24:48,400
mcmillan i've been chasing about as long

2536
01:24:52,070 --> 01:24:50,400
as i've been chasing micah so we would

2537
01:24:54,550 --> 01:24:52,080
love to have him on if you can give us

2538
01:24:58,390 --> 01:24:54,560
an endorsement uh i'm i'm president of

2539
01:25:00,390 --> 01:24:58,400
his northwest florida fan club

2540
01:25:01,669 --> 01:25:00,400
i've got the north carolina chapter

2541
01:25:04,709 --> 01:25:01,679
yeah exactly

2542
01:25:06,709 --> 01:25:04,719
yeah i just he's just uh

2543
01:25:08,310 --> 01:25:06,719
i like him in the same same way that i

2544
01:25:10,709 --> 01:25:08,320
like you're you guys are so different

2545
01:25:12,870 --> 01:25:10,719
but you're the same in a lot of ways and

2546
01:25:15,189 --> 01:25:12,880
you're uh you said that there are people

2547
01:25:16,709 --> 01:25:15,199
who are more adept at speaking on the

2548
01:25:19,750 --> 01:25:16,719
topic than you if there are i haven't

2549
01:25:21,590 --> 01:25:19,760
heard any um but uh so i i love

2550
01:25:24,149 --> 01:25:21,600
listening to you speak and i think i

2551
01:25:25,910 --> 01:25:24,159
share that with the cabbies um so just

2552
01:25:26,870 --> 01:25:25,920
to listen to you speak from my last

2553
01:25:29,669 --> 01:25:26,880
question

2554
01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:29,679
regarding that incident um

2555
01:25:33,750 --> 01:25:32,320
the david peliti's missing 4-1-1 the

2556
01:25:35,510 --> 01:25:33,760
hunted

2557
01:25:38,070 --> 01:25:35,520
i'd like you to speak if you could

2558
01:25:40,550 --> 01:25:38,080
quickly on two aspects one the tom

2559
01:25:42,390 --> 01:25:40,560
messick disappearance in horicon new

2560
01:25:45,830 --> 01:25:42,400
york whereby

2561
01:25:49,430 --> 01:25:45,840
uh this the illusion or the he alluded

2562
01:25:51,590 --> 01:25:49,440
to the fbi not investigating

2563
01:25:52,629 --> 01:25:51,600
missing persons cases that don't involve

2564
01:25:55,430 --> 01:25:52,639
children

2565
01:25:56,950 --> 01:25:55,440
and tom messick uh if you so if you

2566
01:25:59,830 --> 01:25:56,960
hadn't seen it or you hadn't read that

2567
01:26:01,590 --> 01:25:59,840
then i'll just skip right on to s right

2568
01:26:02,950 --> 01:26:01,600
onto the sierras are you unfamiliar with

2569
01:26:04,950 --> 01:26:02,960
that case

2570
01:26:06,550 --> 01:26:04,960
i'm not familiar directly with tom

2571
01:26:09,189 --> 01:26:06,560
messick i am familiar somewhat though

2572
01:26:11,030 --> 01:26:09,199
with the the fbi's involvement in

2573
01:26:13,590 --> 01:26:11,040
disappearances and their investigations

2574
01:26:15,270 --> 01:26:13,600
of them with relation to that topic yeah

2575
01:26:17,590 --> 01:26:15,280
okay so i'll i'll leave that alone but

2576
01:26:20,070 --> 01:26:17,600
if you watch that one on amazon prime

2577
01:26:23,110 --> 01:26:20,080
it's the first uh chapter of that

2578
01:26:25,270 --> 01:26:23,120
missing 4-1-1 the hunted and the fourth

2579
01:26:27,910 --> 01:26:25,280
chapter is the one that that i'd like

2580
01:26:31,669 --> 01:26:27,920
you to focus on right now which is those

2581
01:26:35,510 --> 01:26:31,679
gentlemen uh uh mr berry and mr morehead

2582
01:26:36,390 --> 01:26:35,520
uh out there the northern cal hunters

2583
01:26:39,590 --> 01:26:36,400
that

2584
01:26:41,510 --> 01:26:39,600
had some prolific experiences recording

2585
01:26:43,510 --> 01:26:41,520
sasquatch and

2586
01:26:44,950 --> 01:26:43,520
then you know him going back up there

2587
01:26:47,990 --> 01:26:44,960
and seeing what looked like that

2588
01:26:49,270 --> 01:26:48,000
lightsaber passing through the forest on

2589
01:26:51,189 --> 01:26:49,280
another trip up there because they've

2590
01:26:52,390 --> 01:26:51,199
been going up there since 71 for

2591
01:26:54,070 --> 01:26:52,400
goodness sakes

2592
01:26:55,590 --> 01:26:54,080
and then of course they had the orb

2593
01:26:57,350 --> 01:26:55,600
sighting there so i'm wondering if you

2594
01:27:00,470 --> 01:26:57,360
could just give us your thoughts on that

2595
01:27:01,910 --> 01:27:00,480
that that entire uh

2596
01:27:04,470 --> 01:27:01,920
literally i hate to use the word

2597
01:27:05,750 --> 01:27:04,480
phenomenal episode

2598
01:27:08,149 --> 01:27:05,760
well you know it's it's really

2599
01:27:10,470 --> 01:27:08,159
interesting because in the case of um

2600
01:27:12,470 --> 01:27:10,480
the sierra sounds the famous recording

2601
01:27:15,430 --> 01:27:12,480
that the gentleman obtained

2602
01:27:18,149 --> 01:27:15,440
um here if that is what it

2603
01:27:19,110 --> 01:27:18,159
seems to be and what they claim it is is

2604
01:27:21,910 --> 01:27:19,120
um

2605
01:27:25,590 --> 01:27:21,920
chatter or possibly language being

2606
01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:25,600
produced by sasquatch that they recorded

2607
01:27:29,510 --> 01:27:28,080
that is one of the most interesting

2608
01:27:31,110 --> 01:27:29,520
representations it's not physical

2609
01:27:33,189 --> 01:27:31,120
evidence in the sense of what would you

2610
01:27:34,229 --> 01:27:33,199
know satisfy a you know a biologist or a

2611
01:27:36,310 --> 01:27:34,239
chemist

2612
01:27:38,310 --> 01:27:36,320
but it is a recording

2613
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:38,320
that gives us

2614
01:27:42,070 --> 01:27:39,120
an

2615
01:27:43,990 --> 01:27:42,080
might be

2616
01:27:46,310 --> 01:27:44,000
you know a creature in the environment

2617
01:27:48,870 --> 01:27:46,320
that's producing sound

2618
01:27:51,590 --> 01:27:48,880
the analyses of that audio

2619
01:27:53,669 --> 01:27:51,600
um have been undertaken since the 1970s

2620
01:27:55,350 --> 01:27:53,679
or or early 80s at least

2621
01:27:57,350 --> 01:27:55,360
and some uh

2622
01:27:58,790 --> 01:27:57,360
analyses seem to indicate that they

2623
01:28:01,030 --> 01:27:58,800
believe that the sounds being made are

2624
01:28:02,950 --> 01:28:01,040
well outside the range of of what's

2625
01:28:05,910 --> 01:28:02,960
capable of humans

2626
01:28:09,110 --> 01:28:05,920
so unless uh moorhead at all were

2627
01:28:10,390 --> 01:28:09,120
capable of reproducing uh some sound

2628
01:28:11,270 --> 01:28:10,400
another way

2629
01:28:12,390 --> 01:28:11,280
uh

2630
01:28:13,750 --> 01:28:12,400
you know and that they didn't do this

2631
01:28:16,629 --> 01:28:13,760
themselves or have friends up there you

2632
01:28:19,030 --> 01:28:16,639
know chattering you know then then there

2633
01:28:20,229 --> 01:28:19,040
is something anomalous there so again

2634
01:28:21,669 --> 01:28:20,239
the skeptic would look at it and say you

2635
01:28:23,110 --> 01:28:21,679
know again you guys haven't brought us a

2636
01:28:24,870 --> 01:28:23,120
you know a hand or you haven't brought

2637
01:28:26,950 --> 01:28:24,880
us a foot you know a skull you know we

2638
01:28:28,470 --> 01:28:26,960
haven't there's no dna

2639
01:28:30,470 --> 01:28:28,480
i would look at that and say again yeah

2640
01:28:33,510 --> 01:28:30,480
sure you should be cautious but it's

2641
01:28:35,110 --> 01:28:33,520
good data in terms of

2642
01:28:36,470 --> 01:28:35,120
a couple of things how these creatures

2643
01:28:38,790 --> 01:28:36,480
might behave

2644
01:28:39,830 --> 01:28:38,800
and also how they might react to humans

2645
01:28:41,350 --> 01:28:39,840
and their environment in some

2646
01:28:42,870 --> 01:28:41,360
circumstances which is kind of

2647
01:28:44,870 --> 01:28:42,880
paradoxical because the other claims

2648
01:28:46,390 --> 01:28:44,880
especially morehead ron has in more

2649
01:28:47,750 --> 01:28:46,400
recent years you know with his quantum

2650
01:28:48,550 --> 01:28:47,760
bigfoot idea

2651
01:28:50,149 --> 01:28:48,560
um

2652
01:28:52,149 --> 01:28:50,159
he's kind of gotten much more into the

2653
01:28:53,990 --> 01:28:52,159
sort of paraphysical kind of approach to

2654
01:28:55,430 --> 01:28:54,000
this and i look at that and say it's

2655
01:28:57,510 --> 01:28:55,440
interesting that we have a couple of

2656
01:28:59,830 --> 01:28:57,520
guys who collected what seems to be

2657
01:29:01,830 --> 01:28:59,840
maybe good data about a physical reality

2658
01:29:02,550 --> 01:29:01,840
to these creatures but they don't seem

2659
01:29:04,070 --> 01:29:02,560
to

2660
01:29:06,390 --> 01:29:04,080
recognize it as being a physical

2661
01:29:07,990 --> 01:29:06,400
phenomenon you know the contradiction

2662
01:29:09,830 --> 01:29:08,000
there to me is that you know at least mr

2663
01:29:12,070 --> 01:29:09,840
moorhead who i've never really met but

2664
01:29:13,910 --> 01:29:12,080
i've kind of brushed arms with events

2665
01:29:15,669 --> 01:29:13,920
and things and seen him at a couple of

2666
01:29:17,430 --> 01:29:15,679
lectures you know events that i've gone

2667
01:29:18,470 --> 01:29:17,440
to and i'm familiar with his general

2668
01:29:19,669 --> 01:29:18,480
premise

2669
01:29:22,390 --> 01:29:19,679
he's very much sort of in that

2670
01:29:24,310 --> 01:29:22,400
paraphysical camp um again i don't claim

2671
01:29:26,709 --> 01:29:24,320
to know what the ultimate solution to

2672
01:29:28,070 --> 01:29:26,719
the sasquatch situation is

2673
01:29:29,590 --> 01:29:28,080
you guys can probably tell from this

2674
01:29:31,270 --> 01:29:29,600
conversation i do operate more in the

2675
01:29:33,350 --> 01:29:31,280
flesh and blood kind of paradigm but i'm

2676
01:29:34,790 --> 01:29:33,360
always open to possibilities and ideas

2677
01:29:36,550 --> 01:29:34,800
the only issue is is when we say

2678
01:29:37,510 --> 01:29:36,560
sasquatch may be interdimensional i say

2679
01:29:39,750 --> 01:29:37,520
okay

2680
01:29:41,350 --> 01:29:39,760
and how do we quantify that

2681
01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:41,360
interdimensional phenomena if we had a

2682
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:43,760
good grasp of interdimensional phenomena

2683
01:29:47,910 --> 01:29:45,760
and how that boundary between dimensions

2684
01:29:50,229 --> 01:29:47,920
might be traversed then we could say and

2685
01:29:52,229 --> 01:29:50,239
is sasquatch one of those you know one

2686
01:29:54,310 --> 01:29:52,239
of those traversers maybe so but we

2687
01:29:55,830 --> 01:29:54,320
haven't proven that yet so how do we

2688
01:29:57,350 --> 01:29:55,840
lead with the presumption that sasquatch

2689
01:29:58,950 --> 01:29:57,360
can do something that isn't proven yet

2690
01:30:01,189 --> 01:29:58,960
again to me yet again two negatives

2691
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:01,199
don't make a positive and therefore at

2692
01:30:04,470 --> 01:30:03,199
least provisionally at the outset i

2693
01:30:05,990 --> 01:30:04,480
continue to look at this phenomenon

2694
01:30:09,189 --> 01:30:06,000
within the context of other kinds of

2695
01:30:11,110 --> 01:30:09,199
known biology and try to apply my s my

2696
01:30:12,709 --> 01:30:11,120
approach toward it in the same way i

2697
01:30:15,350 --> 01:30:12,719
would approach similar biological

2698
01:30:19,669 --> 01:30:17,910
yeah it's it it's uh that case is i mean

2699
01:30:20,390 --> 01:30:19,679
i almost get the chills when i watch

2700
01:30:24,229 --> 01:30:20,400
that

2701
01:30:25,110 --> 01:30:24,239
campsite

2702
01:30:32,070 --> 01:30:25,120
to

2703
01:30:34,629 --> 01:30:32,080
are from the 1970s then see david

2704
01:30:36,629 --> 01:30:34,639
politis there in the campground with

2705
01:30:38,709 --> 01:30:36,639
them speaking with them about it

2706
01:30:39,990 --> 01:30:38,719
i think nathan did you guys watch it did

2707
01:30:41,030 --> 01:30:40,000
everybody see it

2708
01:30:42,629 --> 01:30:41,040
on

2709
01:30:44,149 --> 01:30:42,639
it

2710
01:30:46,470 --> 01:30:44,159
and you're talking about the documentary

2711
01:30:48,629 --> 01:30:46,480
missing 4-1-1 the hunted right yes sir

2712
01:30:50,149 --> 01:30:48,639
yes sir yeah and if i may also just

2713
01:30:52,550 --> 01:30:50,159
point out that my dear friends lauren

2714
01:30:54,629 --> 01:30:52,560
and cuz strickland are in that lauren is

2715
01:30:56,310 --> 01:30:54,639
one of my my dearest friends my oldest

2716
01:30:58,229 --> 01:30:56,320
friends who is also a fantastic

2717
01:31:00,149 --> 01:30:58,239
researcher in her own right and she and

2718
01:31:03,430 --> 01:31:00,159
her father of course appear in that

2719
01:31:05,590 --> 01:31:03,440
documentary um we've talked and lauren

2720
01:31:07,110 --> 01:31:05,600
knows uh she and her father both know

2721
01:31:09,430 --> 01:31:07,120
politis extremely well and i've met

2722
01:31:10,950 --> 01:31:09,440
david a few times very nice guy

2723
01:31:13,270 --> 01:31:10,960
but i will say this you know i've looked

2724
01:31:15,510 --> 01:31:13,280
into some of his uh research in some of

2725
01:31:18,070 --> 01:31:15,520
his cases myself tim mcmillan and i

2726
01:31:19,990 --> 01:31:18,080
actually not so much um

2727
01:31:21,270 --> 01:31:20,000
well we may have something that we'll be

2728
01:31:22,790 --> 01:31:21,280
publishing through the debrief that

2729
01:31:24,229 --> 01:31:22,800
actually somewhat falls into the scope

2730
01:31:25,590 --> 01:31:24,239
of this kind of research in the days

2731
01:31:27,510 --> 01:31:25,600
ahead which is not something tim and i

2732
01:31:29,669 --> 01:31:27,520
have teamed up together on before but

2733
01:31:32,550 --> 01:31:29,679
behind the scenes for years we've been

2734
01:31:34,790 --> 01:31:32,560
looking at a couple of cases um

2735
01:31:38,229 --> 01:31:34,800
one in particular that occurred in the

2736
01:31:40,310 --> 01:31:38,239
cades cove wilderness out our way nathan

2737
01:31:42,310 --> 01:31:40,320
uh which again involved a young boy who

2738
01:31:43,990 --> 01:31:42,320
vanished back in 1967 dennis lloyd

2739
01:31:45,910 --> 01:31:44,000
martin

2740
01:31:47,510 --> 01:31:45,920
but that story has i think a lot of

2741
01:31:49,350 --> 01:31:47,520
people have tried to kind of view that

2742
01:31:50,790 --> 01:31:49,360
through the lens of a sasquatch case i

2743
01:31:52,870 --> 01:31:50,800
you know and i don't want to speak on

2744
01:31:54,229 --> 01:31:52,880
behalf of david politis i think perhaps

2745
01:31:55,030 --> 01:31:54,239
he does

2746
01:31:57,189 --> 01:31:55,040
um

2747
01:31:59,030 --> 01:31:57,199
or it has looked at that possibility but

2748
01:32:02,310 --> 01:31:59,040
but i will respectfully point out that

2749
01:32:04,390 --> 01:32:02,320
you know david has tried to to operate

2750
01:32:06,310 --> 01:32:04,400
outside of the sasquatch paradigm with

2751
01:32:09,110 --> 01:32:06,320
his missing 4-1-1

2752
01:32:10,790 --> 01:32:09,120
uh research and i've heard in interviews

2753
01:32:12,709 --> 01:32:10,800
sometimes when people just blatantly ask

2754
01:32:14,870 --> 01:32:12,719
him david you think this is bigfoot he

2755
01:32:17,270 --> 01:32:14,880
gets a little irritated at that because

2756
01:32:19,830 --> 01:32:17,280
he is trying desperately to frame this

2757
01:32:21,669 --> 01:32:19,840
phenomenon in a way that is objective

2758
01:32:23,350 --> 01:32:21,679
he's saying here are the facts here the

2759
01:32:24,390 --> 01:32:23,360
correlations that we see you'll notice

2760
01:32:26,070 --> 01:32:24,400
all these different things like for

2761
01:32:28,149 --> 01:32:26,080
instance a heavy rain moves in after a

2762
01:32:30,149 --> 01:32:28,159
disappearance he's he notes like things

2763
01:32:32,470 --> 01:32:30,159
like the presence of granite boulders

2764
01:32:34,390 --> 01:32:32,480
and things like huckleberry plants you

2765
01:32:35,189 --> 01:32:34,400
know where a lot of these disappearances

2766
01:32:37,590 --> 01:32:35,199
occur

2767
01:32:38,830 --> 01:32:37,600
but he makes late afternoon

2768
01:32:39,830 --> 01:32:38,840
yeah late

2769
01:32:41,430 --> 01:32:39,840
afternoon to

2770
01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:41,440
right yeah certain times a day even

2771
01:32:45,590 --> 01:32:43,679
times a year certain conditions again

2772
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:45,600
that strange silence where other animals

2773
01:32:48,550 --> 01:32:46,800
get silent

2774
01:32:50,629 --> 01:32:48,560
that's something but again

2775
01:32:53,030 --> 01:32:50,639
while there are definitely

2776
01:32:54,629 --> 01:32:53,040
um claims that are made and some of them

2777
01:32:57,189 --> 01:32:54,639
would probably border the extraordinary

2778
01:32:58,790 --> 01:32:57,199
david makes no assertions that guys it's

2779
01:33:00,310 --> 01:32:58,800
time to tie it all together i think that

2780
01:33:01,990 --> 01:33:00,320
interdimensional bigfoot are kidnapping

2781
01:33:04,310 --> 01:33:02,000
kids in our national parks he never says

2782
01:33:07,110 --> 01:33:04,320
that and and that's something i really

2783
01:33:09,350 --> 01:33:07,120
respect about david's work he is trying

2784
01:33:11,510 --> 01:33:09,360
to be objective and he's trying just to

2785
01:33:13,189 --> 01:33:11,520
just present data and he's written a lot

2786
01:33:13,990 --> 01:33:13,199
of very interesting books that do look

2787
01:33:16,229 --> 01:33:14,000
at

2788
01:33:17,590 --> 01:33:16,239
very obvious real phenomena involving

2789
01:33:19,110 --> 01:33:17,600
disappearances and even if we say that

2790
01:33:20,950 --> 01:33:19,120
that's just psychological coming back to

2791
01:33:22,149 --> 01:33:20,960
what kevin was talking about you know

2792
01:33:24,070 --> 01:33:22,159
let's say that there are things that

2793
01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:24,080
happen when a person's really dehydrated

2794
01:33:26,629 --> 01:33:25,520
i've spoken with people who have

2795
01:33:28,950 --> 01:33:26,639
vanished

2796
01:33:30,870 --> 01:33:28,960
and then been uh discovered who have

2797
01:33:32,470 --> 01:33:30,880
been recovered and saved hayley zego was

2798
01:33:34,390 --> 01:33:32,480
a young lady in arkansas who when she

2799
01:33:35,990 --> 01:33:34,400
was just five years old or so

2800
01:33:38,229 --> 01:33:36,000
she got lost and she spent a couple of

2801
01:33:39,669 --> 01:33:38,239
days in the forest by herself that's a

2802
01:33:41,590 --> 01:33:39,679
conversation for another time but i

2803
01:33:43,430 --> 01:33:41,600
interviewed haley fortunately she was

2804
01:33:44,550 --> 01:33:43,440
saved she still tells her story to this

2805
01:33:46,790 --> 01:33:44,560
day and some of the things that she

2806
01:33:49,350 --> 01:33:46,800
describes having happened i think are

2807
01:33:52,149 --> 01:33:49,360
very key in understanding some of the

2808
01:33:54,790 --> 01:33:52,159
missing 4-1-1 phenomena

2809
01:33:57,030 --> 01:33:54,800
wow uh i'll tell you what we're gonna

2810
01:33:59,510 --> 01:33:57,040
we're gonna say our goodbyes now but uh

2811
01:34:02,550 --> 01:33:59,520
i will i'll email you and i would love

2812
01:34:05,110 --> 01:34:02,560
to get your take on the first chapter of

2813
01:34:07,350 --> 01:34:05,120
that one on prime and and tom messick

2814
01:34:08,790 --> 01:34:07,360
because the inference that uh as you

2815
01:34:11,830 --> 01:34:08,800
said david

2816
01:34:13,669 --> 01:34:11,840
is inferring that this is not a child

2817
01:34:15,750 --> 01:34:13,679
this is an 82 year old man that went

2818
01:34:18,709 --> 01:34:15,760
missing in horicon new york and yet the

2819
01:34:21,030 --> 01:34:18,719
fbi came and he leaves you with that and

2820
01:34:23,590 --> 01:34:21,040
he says it the fbi do not

2821
01:34:25,910 --> 01:34:23,600
investigate so it leads could it be a

2822
01:34:27,830 --> 01:34:25,920
ufo phenom they don't he doesn't lead

2823
01:34:30,149 --> 01:34:27,840
you down any particular path but just to

2824
01:34:31,750 --> 01:34:30,159
provoke thought and i and i'll

2825
01:34:33,830 --> 01:34:31,760
correspond with you on email i'd love to

2826
01:34:36,070 --> 01:34:33,840
hear what your your take is on what

2827
01:34:38,390 --> 01:34:36,080
maybe your hypothesis of what happened

2828
01:34:39,750 --> 01:34:38,400
to tom messick when you see when they

2829
01:34:41,750 --> 01:34:39,760
lay it out for you and you hear the

2830
01:34:43,669 --> 01:34:41,760
interviews but uh let's start with steph

2831
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:43,679
with our goodbyes

2832
01:34:47,350 --> 01:34:46,000
well i just wanted to say thank you for

2833
01:34:49,109 --> 01:34:47,360
your due diligence and bringing

2834
01:34:50,790 --> 01:34:49,119
credibility to the subject at the

2835
01:34:51,669 --> 01:34:50,800
debrief you know you and your entire

2836
01:34:53,910 --> 01:34:51,679
team

2837
01:34:55,990 --> 01:34:53,920
i i truly do appreciate the scientific

2838
01:34:58,070 --> 01:34:56,000
approach that you guys bring and the

2839
01:35:00,629 --> 01:34:58,080
research that you guys do place into the

2840
01:35:03,189 --> 01:35:00,639
subject so thank you for that and uh

2841
01:35:05,270 --> 01:35:03,199
yeah i will see you on on the web on

2842
01:35:11,910 --> 01:35:05,280
your next venture

2843
01:35:15,830 --> 01:35:14,470
can you hear me yeah we got you loud and

2844
01:35:18,550 --> 01:35:15,840
clear

2845
01:35:20,790 --> 01:35:18,560
okay cool i just lost connection first

2846
01:35:23,030 --> 01:35:20,800
of all i'm from from a teacher i wanted

2847
01:35:25,350 --> 01:35:23,040
to say thank you because you're

2848
01:35:27,990 --> 01:35:25,360
basically a teacher too this is just

2849
01:35:30,550 --> 01:35:28,000
every time i watch you uh you're you're

2850
01:35:32,390 --> 01:35:30,560
teaching you know you're out there

2851
01:35:35,109 --> 01:35:32,400
sharing your knowledge with with

2852
01:35:37,350 --> 01:35:35,119
everybody and i really appreciate that

2853
01:35:38,950 --> 01:35:37,360
um so thank you you're one of a kind man

2854
01:35:41,030 --> 01:35:38,960
i i was honored

2855
01:35:45,030 --> 01:35:41,040
it was an honor to talk to you thank you

2856
01:35:47,990 --> 01:35:46,550
yeah likewise uh it's been a real

2857
01:35:50,550 --> 01:35:48,000
pleasure mike i hope we get a chance to

2858
01:35:53,350 --> 01:35:50,560
uh uh to meet up soon in the near the

2859
01:35:55,109 --> 01:35:53,360
blue ridge area that would be great um

2860
01:35:56,629 --> 01:35:55,119
and i just want to echo what my

2861
01:35:58,390 --> 01:35:56,639
colleagues have said the the sort of

2862
01:36:00,790 --> 01:35:58,400
torch that you've lit and that you

2863
01:36:02,229 --> 01:36:00,800
passed only through the articles that

2864
01:36:04,950 --> 01:36:02,239
are happening in the deep brief but

2865
01:36:08,070 --> 01:36:04,960
through your clear curiosity and passion

2866
01:36:10,709 --> 01:36:08,080
for these topics you know is undoubtedly

2867
01:36:12,550 --> 01:36:10,719
uh lighting new fires uh in in new

2868
01:36:14,790 --> 01:36:12,560
places and that's what this is all about

2869
01:36:16,790 --> 01:36:14,800
i think uh you know we're only made

2870
01:36:18,709 --> 01:36:16,800
better by shedding light on on subjects

2871
01:36:20,550 --> 01:36:18,719
that seem to be in the shadows if

2872
01:36:22,709 --> 01:36:20,560
nothing else other than to you know see

2873
01:36:24,149 --> 01:36:22,719
what's there even if it ends up being

2874
01:36:25,669 --> 01:36:24,159
nothing at all it's better to have light

2875
01:36:26,950 --> 01:36:25,679
than none so thank you for for your

2876
01:36:28,229 --> 01:36:26,960
efforts there

2877
01:36:29,750 --> 01:36:28,239
i appreciate you and let's definitely

2878
01:36:33,350 --> 01:36:29,760
have the beer sometime or a coffee

2879
01:36:38,070 --> 01:36:35,669
mix it together

2880
01:36:40,310 --> 01:36:38,080
could get dangerous yeah

2881
01:36:42,310 --> 01:36:40,320
yeah this has to happen are you familiar

2882
01:36:44,870 --> 01:36:42,320
with exo academia nathan's partner on

2883
01:36:46,310 --> 01:36:44,880
the other show uh his name is darren

2884
01:36:47,430 --> 01:36:46,320
exo academia and you're not familiar

2885
01:36:49,669 --> 01:36:47,440
with him

2886
01:36:50,830 --> 01:36:49,679
i guess not but i suppose i'm going to

2887
01:36:52,470 --> 01:36:50,840
be

2888
01:36:54,709 --> 01:36:52,480
yes

2889
01:36:56,149 --> 01:36:54,719
go ahead nathan no no no he's well yeah

2890
01:36:58,310 --> 01:36:56,159
he's got his own he has a shirt called

2891
01:37:00,470 --> 01:36:58,320
point of convergence um he's working on

2892
01:37:03,030 --> 01:37:00,480
a couple books right now and uh he's uh

2893
01:37:04,709 --> 01:37:03,040
in the ufo community pretty popular

2894
01:37:07,189 --> 01:37:04,719
podcast

2895
01:37:09,669 --> 01:37:07,199
he's a prolific thinker on the topic

2896
01:37:11,189 --> 01:37:09,679
like you are like nathan is so this is

2897
01:37:12,950 --> 01:37:11,199
going to be a great cup of coffee i'm

2898
01:37:15,270 --> 01:37:12,960
sorry i won't be there for that

2899
01:37:16,950 --> 01:37:15,280
uh but one thing i did want to say we

2900
01:37:20,310 --> 01:37:16,960
talked to our colleague steph about the

2901
01:37:23,109 --> 01:37:20,320
next ufo symposium and nathan and i have

2902
01:37:25,030 --> 01:37:23,119
offered that we will fly to and go to at

2903
01:37:27,270 --> 01:37:25,040
our own expense to whatever event you're

2904
01:37:29,990 --> 01:37:27,280
speaking at because we want to introduce

2905
01:37:30,870 --> 01:37:30,000
you onto the stage we're gonna

2906
01:37:32,790 --> 01:37:30,880
okay

2907
01:37:34,310 --> 01:37:32,800
so well you know that there may be

2908
01:37:35,430 --> 01:37:34,320
something you could do uh

2909
01:37:36,790 --> 01:37:35,440
i don't know what they're they're

2910
01:37:38,070 --> 01:37:36,800
planning i don't want to speak on behalf

2911
01:37:39,430 --> 01:37:38,080
of the um

2912
01:37:41,910 --> 01:37:39,440
the the coordinators but i'm going to be

2913
01:37:43,910 --> 01:37:41,920
doing an event in cape giardo the first

2914
01:37:45,750 --> 01:37:43,920
weekend of august

2915
01:37:48,910 --> 01:37:45,760
that i should mention and uh if you go

2916
01:37:50,629 --> 01:37:48,920
online to i think i think it's cape dash

2917
01:37:52,790 --> 01:37:50,639
events.com

2918
01:37:53,990 --> 01:37:52,800
is the uh events website actually

2919
01:37:55,669 --> 01:37:54,000
there's several different events listed

2920
01:37:57,590 --> 01:37:55,679
there but the first one is the midwest

2921
01:37:59,270 --> 01:37:57,600
conference on the unknown strange tales

2922
01:38:00,870 --> 01:37:59,280
2022.

2923
01:38:02,950 --> 01:38:00,880
really looking forward to this ryan

2924
01:38:04,310 --> 01:38:02,960
sprague whom i'm sure you guys know

2925
01:38:06,470 --> 01:38:04,320
ryan's going to be giving the opening

2926
01:38:08,470 --> 01:38:06,480
keynote on friday i'm doing the keynote

2927
01:38:09,990 --> 01:38:08,480
lecture on saturday

2928
01:38:11,910 --> 01:38:10,000
the title of which is unidentified

2929
01:38:13,189 --> 01:38:11,920
aerial phenomena past present and future

2930
01:38:14,950 --> 01:38:13,199
potentials

2931
01:38:16,629 --> 01:38:14,960
we're going to be going deep

2932
01:38:18,390 --> 01:38:16,639
and i might even have to dig into the

2933
01:38:19,910 --> 01:38:18,400
x-files a little on this one so it's

2934
01:38:22,070 --> 01:38:19,920
it's going to be really fun but if not

2935
01:38:23,430 --> 01:38:22,080
at that event um at some point in the

2936
01:38:25,189 --> 01:38:23,440
future i hope you guys uh will

2937
01:38:26,870 --> 01:38:25,199
definitely do that and i tweeted by the

2938
01:38:28,950 --> 01:38:26,880
way if people want to check me out on

2939
01:38:31,109 --> 01:38:28,960
twitter at micah hanks i put a tweet up

2940
01:38:33,750 --> 01:38:31,119
about that event where you can actually

2941
01:38:35,990 --> 01:38:33,760
uh see where the website is you know and

2942
01:38:37,669 --> 01:38:36,000
and check all that out but um indeed i

2943
01:38:38,870 --> 01:38:37,679
hope our paths cross of course you know

2944
01:38:41,270 --> 01:38:38,880
i saw some of you guys there at the

2945
01:38:42,550 --> 01:38:41,280
event in utah earlier this year steph

2946
01:38:43,990 --> 01:38:42,560
and i we were always going in different

2947
01:38:46,070 --> 01:38:44,000
directions barely had a chance to catch

2948
01:38:48,709 --> 01:38:46,080
up and talk but i was also on the clock

2949
01:38:49,590 --> 01:38:48,719
working so i hope next time we can all

2950
01:38:51,350 --> 01:38:49,600
yeah

2951
01:38:52,870 --> 01:38:51,360
exactly it was quite a

2952
01:38:54,070 --> 01:38:52,880
it was a fast-paced weekend but i hope

2953
01:38:56,070 --> 01:38:54,080
next time we can all get together and

2954
01:38:57,910 --> 01:38:56,080
maybe catch up have a drink

2955
01:39:00,550 --> 01:38:57,920
we will do it and nathan and i are going

2956
01:39:02,550 --> 01:39:00,560
to be meeting in new york for a um

2957
01:39:05,510 --> 01:39:02,560
new york uap supper club with james

2958
01:39:08,950 --> 01:39:05,520
iandoli engaging the phenomenon jay king

2959
01:39:10,870 --> 01:39:08,960
the experiencer uh so uh it's gonna be

2960
01:39:13,109 --> 01:39:10,880
it's gonna be a really big big august

2961
01:39:14,870 --> 01:39:13,119
but if we can plan one where i just have

2962
01:39:17,030 --> 01:39:14,880
a little bit of planning time to get

2963
01:39:18,870 --> 01:39:17,040
there we will come we will get the crowd

2964
01:39:21,910 --> 01:39:18,880
warmed up and we will introduce micah

2965
01:39:24,189 --> 01:39:21,920
hanks and that's at our expense so

2966
01:39:26,229 --> 01:39:24,199
thank you so much for joining us go to

2967
01:39:28,870 --> 01:39:26,239
micahanks.com we're talking about

2968
01:39:30,709 --> 01:39:28,880
sasquatch tracks uh the might which i

2969
01:39:32,950 --> 01:39:30,719
love the mica hank show and there's the

2970
01:39:34,870 --> 01:39:32,960
third podcast please

2971
01:39:36,550 --> 01:39:34,880
well there there are actually two others

2972
01:39:37,510 --> 01:39:36,560
one is called the seven ages audio

2973
01:39:39,350 --> 01:39:37,520
journal

2974
01:39:42,070 --> 01:39:39,360
that's co-hosted by my friends jason

2975
01:39:44,310 --> 01:39:42,080
pintrail and james waldo my seven ages

2976
01:39:46,629 --> 01:39:44,320
research associates um

2977
01:39:48,790 --> 01:39:46,639
i've put on hiatus my news and current

2978
01:39:50,709 --> 01:39:48,800
events show middle theory there's just

2979
01:39:52,870 --> 01:39:50,719
so much going on right now and as much

2980
01:39:55,030 --> 01:39:52,880
as i love being engaged in all of the

2981
01:39:57,030 --> 01:39:55,040
topics and controversies of the day and

2982
01:39:58,310 --> 01:39:57,040
trying to comment on social issues and

2983
01:39:59,910 --> 01:39:58,320
things

2984
01:40:01,910 --> 01:39:59,920
one can only do so much with their time

2985
01:40:04,550 --> 01:40:01,920
and i began to realize i'm doing far too

2986
01:40:06,550 --> 01:40:04,560
little in the uap sphere despite doing

2987
01:40:08,390 --> 01:40:06,560
that almost full time so i had to make

2988
01:40:09,830 --> 01:40:08,400
some room and you can guarantee there'll

2989
01:40:11,510 --> 01:40:09,840
be some additional projects and things

2990
01:40:12,790 --> 01:40:11,520
you'll be hearing about in the near

2991
01:40:14,870 --> 01:40:12,800
future

2992
01:40:17,030 --> 01:40:14,880
and you are you're a musician is that

2993
01:40:19,510 --> 01:40:17,040
correct oh yeah yeah guitarist and

2994
01:40:21,109 --> 01:40:19,520
singer and i perform regularly with yeah

2995
01:40:23,030 --> 01:40:21,119
with a group called nitro grass in the

2996
01:40:25,030 --> 01:40:23,040
southeast but uh anywhere there's a

2997
01:40:27,109 --> 01:40:25,040
guitar nearby or a microphone you're

2998
01:40:29,910 --> 01:40:27,119
likely to see me getting musical

2999
01:40:31,910 --> 01:40:29,920
i love it i knew it uh your top four um

3000
01:40:34,390 --> 01:40:31,920
the mount rushmore of rock and roll for

3001
01:40:36,709 --> 01:40:34,400
micah hanks is who are those top four

3002
01:40:38,470 --> 01:40:36,719
influential groups oh gosh i mean it

3003
01:40:40,950 --> 01:40:38,480
would have to be like led zeppelin jimi

3004
01:40:43,109 --> 01:40:40,960
hendrix you know probably dimebag daryl

3005
01:40:45,910 --> 01:40:43,119
of pantera the late great and uh and

3006
01:40:47,669 --> 01:40:45,920
also uh mr mr zachary wilde aussies

3007
01:40:49,590 --> 01:40:47,679
guitarist and of course of black label

3008
01:40:51,910 --> 01:40:49,600
uh society fame now those are all rock

3009
01:40:53,590 --> 01:40:51,920
influences but we can go down any genre

3010
01:40:56,149 --> 01:40:53,600
and i'll give you those so give me four

3011
01:40:57,910 --> 01:40:56,159
all right so for for part two we gotta

3012
01:41:00,149 --> 01:40:57,920
hit up we gotta get some more music in

3013
01:41:02,870 --> 01:41:00,159
there so thank you so much it was an

3014
01:41:05,910 --> 01:41:02,880
honor to speak with you namaste micah so

3015
01:41:08,310 --> 01:41:05,920
for uh micah hanks for steph for kevin

3016
01:41:10,229 --> 01:41:08,320
for money nathan this is dj and cab

3017
01:41:11,350 --> 01:41:10,239
saying peace out

3018
01:41:13,590 --> 01:41:11,360
one love

3019
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:13,600
we'll see you down the road we're always

3020
01:41:25,370 --> 01:41:17,010
wondering what's up around the bend